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  1. #1

    Holding attack/defense Holding system

    I was looking rules and I thought up a new system that might work well in a 4th edition Birthright setting. If people seem even somewhat interested I can expand the idea.

    4th edition has a pretty solid system of attack and defense. I was thinking we could apply this to a realm level for the success of actions. Here are my thoughts.

    Each holding would have an attack and defense number.

    Law (half bloodline score + Law holding + class modifier)
    Guild (half boodline score + Guild holding level + class modifier)
    Temple (half bloodline score + Temple holding level + class modifer)
    Source (half bloodline score + Source holding level + class modifer)
    Province (half bloodline score + Province level + half character level)

    Defense of each holding would follow a similer pattern

    Law (10 + half bloodline score + law holding + class modifier)
    - you can follow the pattern for the rest.


    Certain classes are better prepared to defend certain holding types. If the class favors the holding type they get a +5 to both attack and defense. If they are neutral to the holding it is 0 modifier. Some classes are ill prepared to handle certain types of holdings and receive a -5 modifier.

    Warrior - Favored - Law, Neutral - guild, No relation - Source, Temple
    Priest - Favored - Temple, Neutral - Law, No relation - Source, guild
    Rogue - Favored - Guild, Neutral - Law, No relation - Source Temple
    Wizard - Favored - Source, Neutral - nothing, No relation -Temple, Guild, Law

    Many of the domain actions use attack and defense values for success.

    Contest Holding - Holding attack vs. Holding defense
    Contest Trade route - Holding attack vs. guild defense
    Create Holding - Holding attack vs. Base DC
    Create Leyline - Source attack vs. Province Defense
    Create Trade Route - Guild attack vs. Base DC
    Espionage - Guild or holding attack vs. various defense
    Rule Holding - Hold Attack vs. Same holding defense
    Rule Province - Province Attack vs. Province defense


    Regency battle - Once per month a regent can call a regency battle on one of their actions. One that single action they can spend regency to effect the outcome of the roll. Once declared any regent in the area can spend for or against the action. The regent can only focus all of his personal energy to one action. If the regent is doing an action that is effecting multiple provinces then he can choose one province to declare regency battle.

    If a regent declares a regency battle against you ... this doesn't count against your decleration and you can spend freely against or for the other regent.

    Each of the domain actions would cost a base amount of regency. This should be a static amount. Every time the regent wants to contest holding it will cost 5 regency.


    Certainly a much different way to go about it. The numbers above aren't really balanced but wanted to give you a feel for what I was thinking.

    -BB

  2. #2
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    How are you calculating Bloodline score? By my reckoning Darien Avan has a 70, which gives him a 10 + 35 + 2 + 5 = 52 to defend his law holding in Portage. against attacks from Aeric Boeruine 30 + 0 + 5 =35, 17 required for effect.

    Darien is 42 in attack against Aeric's Portage holding, which defends at a 45, 3 for effect. Never mind Alamie or Tournen.

    Are you using some other method of calculating Bloodscore?

  3. #3
    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    Each holding would have an attack and defense number.

    Law (half bloodline score + Law holding + class modifier)
    Guild (half boodline score + Guild holding level + class modifier)
    Temple (half bloodline score + Temple holding level + class modifer)
    Source (half bloodline score + Source holding level + class modifer)
    Province (half bloodline score + Province level + half character level)

    Defense of each holding would follow a similer pattern

    Law (10 + half bloodline score + law holding + class modifier)
    - you can follow the pattern for the rest.

    Many of the domain actions use attack and defense values for success.

    Contest Holding - Holding attack vs. Holding defense
    Contest Trade route - Holding attack vs. guild defense
    Create Holding - Holding attack vs. Base DC
    Create Leyline - Source attack vs. Province Defense
    Create Trade Route - Guild attack vs. Base DC
    Espionage - Guild or holding attack vs. various defense
    Rule Holding - Hold Attack vs. Same holding defense
    Rule Province - Province Attack vs. Province defense

    -BB
    In the case of Rule Holding/Rule Province, if your attack rating = your defense rating there is no need to roll. As any # rolled will = success.

    Create Leyline is an action that should not be opposable (IMO that is why there are spells to detect leylines.)

    Otherwise, I think these rules for contest holdings are good. I like the -5 penalty, specifically as it makes wizard/source regents depend more on other regents.

    Steve

  4. #4
    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    I assumed (I know, my bad) that he was planning on using the 3e/3.5 system for Bloodline scores. (normally 3-18) And that he meant to use the Bloodline Score Modifier in his calculations. (+1,+2, etc...)

    For the 4ed are people looking at returning to the 2ed way for computing Bloodline Scores?

  5. #5
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    I assumed (I know, my bad) that he was planning on using the 3e/3.5 system for Bloodline scores. (normally 3-18) And that he meant to use the Bloodline Score Modifier in his calculations. (+1,+2, etc...)

    For the 4ed are people looking at returning to the 2ed way for computing Bloodline Scores?
    This system was already changed in the 3.5 system.

    The sanctioned version of Chapter 2 (the one on the wiki too) went back to the old values.

    This switch was done over a year ago, closer to 2.

    Chapter 1 was likewise "revised " and sanctioned.

    So both are different than what appears in the "playtest" version.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    In the case of Rule Holding/Rule Province, if your attack rating = your defense rating there is no need to roll. As any # rolled will = success.

    Create Leyline is an action that should not be opposable (IMO that is why there are spells to detect leylines.)

    Otherwise, I think these rules for contest holdings are good. I like the -5 penalty, specifically as it makes wizard/source regents depend more on other regents.

    Steve
    Actually if you noticed the defense score is 10+ all of the other modifiers. So in an equal world you would have a 50/50 shot. Now we can include other modifiers to help boost your attack so you are more likely to succeed.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    This system was already changed in the 3.5 system.

    The sanctioned version of Chapter 2 (the one on the wiki too) went back to the old values.

    This switch was done over a year ago, closer to 2.

    Chapter 1 was likewise "revised " and sanctioned.

    So both are different than what appears in the "playtest" version.

    Yeah I believe there are two verisons at the moment. I do think bloodline modifier makes the most sense after I slept on it. So an incredibly powerful bloodline will certainly have an advantage over a weak one. But a powerful holding but a weak bloodline might be able to hold its own.

  8. #8
    Other quick thoughts

    There are all types of modifiers we could apply here.

    Holding type vs. same holding type would have no modifier. But if law attacks something isn't another law they would have a -2 (or another number) to succeed.

    We could include modifiers that others have mentioned. Racial modifier to succeed or even bloodline type modifier. Best part is if you don't want bloodline type modifier don't include it in your campaign.

    just tossing out other ideas I thought of ...

    Have powers that can interact more with holdings.

    - Once per season you can boost an attack of one of your holdings by +5.
    - Once per year you can save one of your holdings from attack. (Think Tournen trying to defend law holdings vs Avanil. Knowing full well that Avanil can steamroll Tournen's law holdings the regent of Tournen once could auto succeed in defense just once.)
    - Once per season you can attack one other holding as a court action instead of a standard action.

    -BB

  9. #9
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    You're talking about Contest actions? What is deficient about the current system? What are you trying to correct or improve?

  10. #10
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    While not 100% related, Contest and Rule were too asymmetric in power in 2e (and they continue to be in 3e, why not reducing 1 level instead of 1d3? Ruling is nor cheap nor automatic).

    About this system, I did some tests for something similar in my homemade campaign. It's not balanced as there are other things that affect the power of holdings in general.

    Law: = vs Law, + vs Temple, + vs Guild, can't vs Source.
    Temple: - vs Law, = vs Temple, - vs Guild, -- vs Source.
    Guild: - vs Law, - vs Temple, = vs Guild, can't vs Source.
    Source: can't vs Law, can't vs Temple, can't vs Guild, = vs Source.
    Last edited by Vicente; 06-17-2008 at 05:33 PM.

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