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Thread: Bloodline tied to Level
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06-10-2008, 10:44 AM #41
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I can see the bloodline powers being tied to the levels categories of 4th ed - at least the adventure level ones.
I am having trouble trying to get my hands around a way to handle domain level interaction of bloodline. IMO the score should remain mostly untouched since it is a measure of accomplishment that has nothing to do with character level.
RP acquisition is something a tad more challenging.
Again multi-classing is a common practice in 4th ed - unlike 2nd ed so we are back into finding some system that doesn't overly reward such choices.
Skills don't work the same anymore so a skill rank/total mod system of tying in RP collection to bloodline doesn't seem to quite fit to me either.
There absolutely needs to be something that makes certain classes have a better shot at getting RP from certain holdings, IMO.
Perhaps adding a class option to each that reflects this {just rambling on}.
Perhaps a multiclassing feat that makes the connection to a specifc bloodline derivation might likewise be attractive mechanically.Duane Eggert
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06-10-2008, 01:05 PM #42
I will take a shot at this rambling thing.
There are certain things we all seem to agree on or at least share a somewhat similer view ....
- Bloodline score and strength is not tied to level.
- Adventure based blood powers might be ok to match into class abilities matching into heroic/paragon/epic level system.
You are totally right with the multi-class thing. How can we create a system where classes are tied into certain holdings?
Now that I just said levels won't be tied into regency ... we could switch the current model of skills into levels of a specific class. Take the old 2nd edition rules for which classes can gain full regency from specific holdings. The highest level of the character is considered their primary class and can gain full regency from holdings tied to that class. Any lower level class they might have will only get them half regency and only after they have reached at least 5 levels of that off class. In the above example a character begins his career as a primary fighter and gains full regency from law holdings. He picks up thievery and also duel-classes as a rogue. Since his fighter levels are higher he gains full regency from law still but can also gain half regency from guilds because of his rogue level.
-BB
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06-10-2008, 01:20 PM #43
Is multi-classing really the problem it was in 3e?
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06-10-2008, 01:38 PM #44
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As players can only multiclass in another class at most I don't think it's going to be a pain like the Fighter 3/Cleric 3/Rogue 2/Insersomethingelsehere of 3e... But given that humans in 4e are multiclassers by design (with that extra feat and at-will power) probably 4e will lead to many more multiclass players than 2e (where humans couldn't multiclass, only dual class and it was quite hard). Half-elves are in a similar situation.
True that humans and half-elves powers will change in the conversion so this could be avoided, but I think that in general multiclass characters are going to become more common. I don't find bad giving a certain % of the total RP depending on how much you have multiclassed (multiclass feats giving less than taking multiclass + second class instead of Paragon Path).
But true this one needs to be talked, as multiclassing is much more blurred in this edition.
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06-10-2008, 02:35 PM #45
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What if we emphasize bloodlines more (in BR, I'm in favor of almost anything that emphasizes the unique setting characteristics more) by linking bloodline Derivations to holding types? It would directly help explain why derivations are more common among certain types of domains than others, other than just the flavor-based explanations that existed previously. We can still account for class, as well.
So here are some examples that may be a little more complicated, but perhaps acceptable complication:
All derivations can draw full RP from the land. Other than that, derivations allow a scion to draw half RP from appropriate holdings. This will require them to have appropriate class combinations--see below--to draw full RP (so players don't build scions of Anduiras and take a level in Rogue just because they think they've got Law holdings covered).
Anduiras: Law, Temples of Haelyn, Cuiraecen
Azrai: All
Basaia: Law, Temples of Avani/Avanalae
Brenna: Guild, Temples of Sera/Sarimie, Eloele
Masela: Guild, Temples of Nesirie (guilds because of connection to sea and trade)
Reynir: Temples of Erik, Sources (Sources as druid)
Voryn: Temples of Ruornil, Sources
I feel like I'm missing someone..
As for Classes, let a character obtain half RP from class appropriate holdings. This way, even unblooded scions can actually draw RP, just not nearly as effectively. Note that not all classes are equal as realm rulers, IMO.
Cleric: Temples
Wizard: Sources
Rogue: Guilds
Fighter: Law
Paladin: Law, Temple
Ranger: None
Warlord: Provinces, Law
Warlock: Sources (an argument could be made that they should draw on awnmebhaigl sources/Shadow World sources in parallel to the real world sources, or perhaps even cultish temples)
To Be Added (I hope): Noble: Provinces, Law
I do not have my 4e books yet (supposed to come in the mail today--Amazon preorder should have shipped the day it came out; this annoys me). However, in response to Beau, isn't it the case in 4e that you actually do not accumulate levels in a secondary class at all? You only blend the two classes (and only two classes max) into one expanded set of class options, with only one character level?
If this is the case, then we can't tie class RP collection to level in each class.
Thanks, Vicente, for the point of agreement on bloodline powers. I'm comfortable with what it looks like everyone is agreeing on.Last edited by Rowan; 06-10-2008 at 02:42 PM.
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06-10-2008, 02:58 PM #46
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You are right in the multiclass levels thing. You don't have X levels on class 1 and Y levels on class 2. You are more or less "multiclassed":
- Half-elf: you get one power from another class
- Multiclass feat: you get one power and one skill from one class. You count as a member of that class for requisites.
- Swap at-will power: you change one of your powers for one power of the other class.
- Swap encounter power: you change one of your powers for one power of the other class.
- Swap daily power: you change one of your powers for one power of the other class.
- Take a second class instead of a paragon path.
Those are the different multiclass posibilities from less multiclased to more multiclassed in 4e.
As for derivations and RP I like that idea too (I use that on my personal games, RP is totally tied to derivation and regency collection is a blood power). In 2e-3e that doesn't explain "weird" things like a figher getting RP from Sources, but in 4e is not so hard to explain as a figher can cast rituals if he takes the Ritual Caster feat (not that I like it, but by the rules he can). So if Domain Spells are similar to Rituals (and they do like very similar) it stops looking so weird.
But it's a big change...
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06-10-2008, 03:21 PM #47
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06-10-2008, 03:28 PM #48
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I don't mind fighters being able to control sources if they'd like to try (fighters of Reynir or Vorynn derivations). They'll of course have to learn some Rituals, and any wizard worth his salt is going to have little trouble steamrolling over his domain unless the fighter has multiclassed with wizard. DMs could easily still say, however, that you must be a wizard (or multiclassed as such) to create a Source. Easy enough fix.
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06-10-2008, 03:54 PM #49
Its nice enough to be possible, such as when the child is not of the same class as the parent, and has to arrange vassalage. If its prohibited, these kinds of things can get awkward. There may be a time when the mighty fighter is a better steward of the sources he inherited than his younger cousin, who is still an apprentice and has only mastered his first cantrip.
One notices there are no children on thrones. Since most presume that blood manifests its power in adolescence, boy kings would seem to be no better than commoners on thrones.
Yet, one can also imagine a domain whose proper heir is a few years too young to take over just yet, while another holds the reigns of power just yet. One hopes they'll let go when the time comes.
Could be another interpretation of the fate of William Moergan.
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06-10-2008, 05:15 PM #50
So multi-class character work much different. That might help the situation.
Why not stick to the old 2nd edition rules then. Since in 4th you have to pick a starting class which is your primary class.
Now instead of picking up a paragon path you choose another class ... then you can get regency from that also. I don't see the harm in this. Maybe only 50% of the regency for any additional classes you take.
regency dependant on derivation is a pretty cool idea. There are a couple of ways to go about including it.
- Certain derivations would up the maximum regency gained each turn by a set number ... like 5 or 10 above your max. This could include holdings you should get no regency from. So instead of 0 you could get 5 or 10 regency. This gives you a benifit if it is your primary source of regency or secondary.
- Derivations could add a multipler to regency gained from certain holding types. Multiplier could be 10% or 20%.
-BB
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