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  1. #21
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    Keeping bloodline separate from level is a key characteristic of Birthright. I absolutely do not want a game that relies heavily on level for rulership. Keeping them separate allows BR to remain a low-level setting in most cases and prevents a Forgotten Realms power-gaming scenario.

    If the reason here is to prevent bloodthefting of children, simply rule that no regency or bloodline power can be gained from progeny (their bloodlines stem from the parent's). Of course, because fratricide and patricide tend to be a concern in medieval rulership, allow children to bloodtheft siblings and parents effectively. It would be a one-way situation.

  2. #22
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    Spell slots was a trait of DnD and it was killed for good on 4e. While I agree that's not a reason to change things, I can't remember many exceptions to high bloodlines tied to high levels in Birthright itself (I don't have RoE to check right now, I can only think about Darien Avan right now).

    And it seems to make sense in the framework of 4e mechanics and in that it wouldn't impact the setting too much, (is more coherent than adding an exception where you can't bloodtheft your progeny but your progeny can bloodtheft you, that would have a bigger impact on the way blooded characters live).

  3. #23
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Keeping bloodline separate from level is a key characteristic of Birthright. I absolutely do not want a game that relies heavily on level for rulership. Keeping them separate allows BR to remain a low-level setting in most cases and prevents a Forgotten Realms power-gaming scenario.
    I don't think anyone has advocated tying rulership to level. The only thing suggested being tied to level are those blood abilities that are for adventuring as opposed to ruling.

    If the reason here is to prevent bloodthefting of children, simply rule that no regency or bloodline power can be gained from progeny (their bloodlines stem from the parent's). Of course, because fratricide and patricide tend to be a concern in medieval rulership, allow children to bloodtheft siblings and parents effectively. It would be a one-way situation.
    I couldn't find the old thread, but I do recall that in the past I have argued that since bloodline is inherited, you can't bloodtheft your own bloodline, since you already have it. I think you are suggesting the same thing.

  4. #24
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    Yes, Kgauck, I agree with that. I do think that you should be able to bloodtheft your siblings and ancestors, and Vicente, I think that is far more coherent from a storyline perspective than anything tied to level. It often gets rather difficult to explain level-based variation in story terms unless you also tie level to age and accomplishment.

    There are examples of low level people with high bloodlines, and in particular the simple logical sense that people with high bloodlines start out at low levels. Mhstecai, Wiz6, Vo Major 45 (if I'm remembering correctly).

    Anyway, if we're talking about adventure level, that doesn't matter as much. Powers like Battlewise, however, have realm-level implications, and I have long been advocating a move to bloodline powers having a realm-level effect. These should not be tied to level in any fashion.

    To clarify, are you suggesting that bloodline score remain constant, but powers available for adventuring increase by level, or that everything (bloodline score included) increase by level?

    And what of things like Bloodmark, Character Reading, Unreadable Thoughts, and Divine Aura that seem to be characteristic traits of the scions, independent of level?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    I don't like the concept of tying bloodlines to levels. I don't have an alternate suggestion/system at the momement beyond the way it works in 2e. But it is an innate ability given by birth and developed with a specific series of requirements not something based on experience.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Lawgiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    1 whether we are building a low level or high level magic conversion - and the impacts of that choice,
    Low.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    2 whether bloodlines will be restricted to realm play or not,
    Not. That's an issue for the GM/Players to resolve not the game system.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    3 whether scions should be 'better' than unblooded,
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    4 how to deal with awn and ehrshegh, etc, etc.
    Several systems presented previously. Hash out the other issues first.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Yes, Kgauck, I agree with that. I do think that you should be able to bloodtheft your siblings and ancestors, and Vicente, I think that is far more coherent from a storyline perspective than anything tied to level. It often gets rather difficult to explain level-based variation in story terms unless you also tie level to age and accomplishment.
    I don't find illogical tying level to bloodline. For example adding an Awn/Ers epic destiny makes a lot of sense (comparing it to the demigod epic destiny in the PH). And not been able to bloodtheft your own children is pretty weak as depending on the parents your own children can even have a different derivation than you, so they don't have only your blood. I'm sure that Kenneth original explanation was far more complete but that's a big hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    There are examples of low level people with high bloodlines, and in particular the simple logical sense that people with high bloodlines start out at low levels. Mhstecai, Wiz6, Vo Major 45 (if I'm remembering correctly).
    Yes there are examples, but it's not logical, or at least not more logical than the proposal. It happened because the rules allowed it, not because it makes more sense than having things the other way round. If Birthright 2e said you can't have more than 5*Level Bloodline Score because your body is not prepared to "tap" so much divine essence then the "logical" thing would be something else...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Anyway, if we're talking about adventure level, that doesn't matter as much. Powers like Battlewise, however, have realm-level implications, and I have long been advocating a move to bloodline powers having a realm-level effect. These should not be tied to level in any fashion.
    In adventure level is important because players should be balanced. That's the spirit of 4e and it's not so hard to make it fit within the Birthright spirit. Having people far more powerful is staying at the same point 2e was and the new edition took a lot of steps to make those things disappear. You can make a full DnD 4e character without throwing a single dice, that's not a coincidence. Having a single progression table for all characters is not a coincidence either.

    I haven't give any thoughts to realm level, but I do like bloodline powers having realm-level effects (although I don't see it as exclusive: realm level or adventure level but not both).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    To clarify, are you suggesting that bloodline score remain constant, but powers available for adventuring increase by level, or that everything (bloodline score included) increase by level?
    Not sure what to do with bloodline score. I find easy to tie Minor/Major/Great with Heroic/Paragon/Epic (or something like that), but not sure about the bloodline score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    And what of things like Bloodmark, Character Reading, Unreadable Thoughts, and Divine Aura that seem to be characteristic traits of the scions, independent of level?
    I fail to see what are you saying here As far as I remember they are powers like summoning animals or traveling.

    But well, seems most people prefer having those 2 concepts separated, I'm sure other ideas will come out for handling bloodlines.

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
    Not sure what to do with bloodline score. I find easy to tie Minor/Major/Great with Heroic/Paragon/Epic (or something like that), but not sure about the bloodline score.

    Yup - that was one of the big issues with the Dragon article that did a BR - feat based system.

    It worked sort of fine for blood abilities but the authors seemed to forget all about the domain level of play and the signficance of the bloodline score.

    That is the sticky point here, IMO.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
    Well I would think that the bloodscore of a character is consistant and is gained at birth like usual. I see no reason why this has to change. It will give the blooded character more options for growth and different abilities but otherwise in adventure level playing they would be on par with non-blooded folks.

    Blood powers themselves can scale according to level. Minor blood powers like bloodmark can be available right away. We can even say for arguement sake that every blooded person above minor get to choose one minor ability at character creation as a bonus. Makes sense in a story prospective that bloodmark would be one of the first blood powers to manifest itself.

    We can create domain wide blood powers and tie them directly into the blood score level. That would have no effect on adventure but certain more to do with domain. We would just have to be careful on how powerful we make them.

    Remember what we are trying to correct here is a possible imbalance that will occur with giving some characters many more powers than others at a low level. Since many of us play campaigns that are solely based on adventure play and other that have a mix of adventure and domain actions ... I think it is important to work this out.

    I was slightly surprised in one of my campaigns when a powerful scion used blood powers to confuse all non-blooded people around him. At first I thought it was a fine idea ... then it dawned on me that he can do this in almost any situation and be fairly successful against people much higher level than himself. It is unbalanced and now I am going to have to work around this problem for the remainder of the campaign.

  10. #30
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    To clarify, are you suggesting that bloodline score remain constant, but powers available for adventuring increase by level, or that everything (bloodline score included) increase by level?
    The only thing that should be tied to level is adventuring abilities. Some blood abilities are really useful for adventuring and would never come up in ruling. These should be available to scions as blooded feats, but not right out of the box, because its unnecessary and unbalancing.

    And what of things like Bloodmark, Character Reading, Unreadable Thoughts, and Divine Aura that seem to be characteristic traits of the scions, independent of level?
    If they can't be used in combat, or when combat is likely, then they should be available. Its easy to balance these kinds of abilities in role play when its seems appropriate. No matter what power it is, if someone uses it all the time, its because the DM hasn't established boundaries.

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