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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    I can see the bloodline powers being tied to the levels categories of 4th ed - at least the adventure level ones.
    This I totally agree with, I also think scion powers/feats should be slightly above average compared to normal powers/feats. Scions always were just plain Better than nonscions.
    I am having trouble trying to get my hands around a way to handle domain level interaction of bloodline. IMO the score should remain mostly untouched since it is a measure of accomplishment that has nothing to do with character level.
    RP acquisition is something a tad more challenging.

    Again multi-classing is a common practice in 4th ed - unlike 2nd ed so we are back into finding some system that doesn't overly reward such choices.
    Well in some ways. The most any race can get is powers from three classes, and even then they are only considered to be two of the classes. It is still much more common than 2e, but over all less absurd than 3e.
    Skills don't work the same anymore so a skill rank/total mod system of tying in RP collection to bloodline doesn't seem to quite fit to me either.

    There absolutely needs to be something that makes certain classes have a better shot at getting RP from certain holdings, IMO.
    I think if use class features that don't get moved over with multiclassing (F.E., Implement Mastery is unique to wizards), we could tie RP in that way. I will break out my book when I get home tonight and make a listing.
    Perhaps adding a class option to each that reflects this {just rambling on}.

    Perhaps a multiclassing feat that makes the connection to a specifc bloodline derivation might likewise be attractive mechanically.
    It could be made so maybe.

  2. #52
    In 2E, regency gain was:

    Guild: Thief (100%), Ranger (100%), Bard (50%)
    Law: Warrior (100%), Priest (50%), Thief (50%)
    Source: Wizard (100%)
    Temple: Priest (100%), Paladin (100%)
    Province: All (All)
    Trade Route: Thief (1 RP per GB)

    I don't see how multi-classing in 4E will really break how it was in 2E. I would probably keep the above and basically change the second class of the character only receiving half of the RP they would gain if that was there main class. The only class that 'breaks' is Main Class Priests and multi-class Wizard.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis View Post
    In 2E, regency gain was:

    Guild: Thief (100%), Ranger (100%), Bard (50%)
    Law: Warrior (100%), Priest (50%), Thief (50%)
    Source: Wizard (100%)
    Temple: Priest (100%), Paladin (100%)
    Province: All (All)
    Trade Route: Thief (1 RP per GB)

    I don't see how multi-classing in 4E will really break how it was in 2E. I would probably keep the above and basically change the second class of the character only receiving half of the RP they would gain if that was there main class. The only class that 'breaks' is Main Class Priests and multi-class Wizard.

    I was looking at the rules myself now. I certainly think that we can go back to the second edition rules when it comes to who gets what for regency. The only wrinkle I would put in is that maybe with the way multi-classing works when you take a multi-class feat you can have access to some other class regency gains from their holdings. Maybe only half or a quarter ... but something. Really haven't thought it through yet.

  4. #54
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    Half RP is better than a quarter or any other multiplier--keep it simple.

    4e has new classes and class concepts; I happen to agree with them and think they fit BR fairly well. I stand by my proposed list of half RP for certain holding types per class, the other half coming from derivation. All we need take from 2e is the concept that class influences RP collected; the actual amounts and associations of classes with holdings shouldn't need to be dictated by 2e.

  5. #55
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I'm out of sync clearly - I'm wondering why there is any link between class and RP collection.

    The simplification of skills on 4e makes that skills a poor method for allocating RP - unless you decide to add a 'non adventure' set of skills for 4e with points based of skill use not level (if I don't find something in 4e for use off a battlemap I'll be bored and doing a set fairly rapidly).

    I'm wondering still about the 'realm level' class still - all it would give is access to RP (and possibly GB) from holdings, domain feats, etc with no adventure evel implications, but it would allow a mechanic to say that 'X' is a better ruler than 'y' with some system of measurement. So Harold Khorien would be low level or unskilled away from source feats and skills, whereas the White Witch would be godlike obtaining the maximum output in gold and regency from her scattered holdings...

    I would certainly prefer not to have a system that said 'Erik Danig is a lousy ruler because he can't swing a sword' on the mechanic grounds that Erik is a wizard not a fighter.

    Earning RP is imho (sources aside) about being accepted as a leader by the people and respected - even worshiped by them - the ability of the character to perform adventure level activities should, outside the Vos perhaps, be completely irrelevant. To put it another way, when Koth the wizard needs to rouse the people to war he can wear shiny armour and wave a shiny sword with the best of them - the fact that he can't hit a barn door with the sword is irrelevant.

  6. #56
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:00 PM 6/11/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

    I'm out of sync clearly - I`m wondering why there is any link between class and RP collection.

    The simplification of skills on 4e makes that skills a poor method for allocating RP - unless you decide to add a `non adventure` set of skills for 4e with points based of skill use not level (if I don`t find something in 4e for use off a battlemap I`ll be bored and doing a set fairly rapidly).

    I've never got the "regency collection based on skills" argument, personally.... I suppose it`s a sort of non-magical interpretation of RP, which I've always thought to be fundamentally missing the point.

    I would certainly prefer not to have a system that said `Erik Danig is a lousy ruler because he can`t swing a sword` on the mechanic grounds that Erik is a wizard not a fighter.

    Earning RP is imho (sources aside) about being accepted as a leader by the people and respected - even worshiped by them - the ability of the character to perform adventure level activities should, outside the Vos perhaps, be completely irrelevant. To put it another way, when Koth the wizard needs to rouse the people to war he can wear shiny armour and wave a shiny sword with the best of them - the fact that he can't hit a barn door with the sword is irrelevant.


    There are three different terms here and they reflect very different things: acceptance, respect and worship. They fairly neatly describe BR`s domain level concepts, though, so they work as a method of explaining the thematic emphasis of the domain rules, regency and how they interact with character class. Basically, it boils down to this: RP is not about being accepted or respected by the people. It does, conceptually, related to being worshipped by them an abstract, general kind of way.... Regency is the domain level collection of magical energies garnered by a god through worship.

    The acceptance of the people might be best expressed in BR as the simple existence of province and holding levels. After all, these things can be contested, rebelled against or otherwise rejected.

    The respect of the people would probably best be illustrated in the BR domain rules through the loyalty numbers of provinces (I think holdings should have loyalty ratings too) for their regents.

    The ability to collect regency, however, is a different beastie. Think of character class as being the thematic emphasis of a character. He`s a fighter, cleric, rogue or wizard as a sort of life choice. He embodies certain fighting, preaching, stealing or magical traits and dedicates his experience, body, soul and intellect to becoming an incarnation of that "profession." This compares most closely to the divine concept of "spheres of influence" amongst the gods. Character classes relate to specific holdings (all regents collect RP from provinces) in ways that relate to their personal choices in life.

    Compare to various gods themselves. It`s hard to imagine Thor collecting divine energies from guilds. Oh, one could rationalize it in various ways, but the giant killer doesn't scream commerce and intrigue. Aphrodite doesn't seem apt for law holdings. Cthulhu doesn't strike me as a particularly interested in sources. This is illustrated in BR too. Erik doesn't seem all that interested in temple holdings. He prefers source manifestations. (We didn't actually have many rules for this in the original materials, unfortunately, and things still seem awkward when dealing with that god`s worship.) These characteristics would seem most closely tied to the divine equivalent of character class.

    So, thematically, the relationship between character class and regency isn't one of respect or acceptance. Many regents collect RP from holdings in which they are reviled and even rebelled against. There are regents who are both respected and accepted as rulers of holdings that they would normally not be able to influence. In most of those cases, however, they rule domains that ALSO include holdings from which they collect RP, so they are effectively borrowing from one to stand in for the other, but the difference is transparent from the perspective of the participants.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 06-12-2008 at 12:28 AM.

  7. #57
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    Erik doesn`t seem all that interested in temple holdings. He prefers source manifestations. (We didn`t actually have many rules for this in the original materials, unfortunately, and things still seem awkward when dealing with that god`s worship.)
    I prefer to think of from a Rjurik point-of-view. Their concept of a temple holding is different to that of Anuireans etc. They don't have temple holdings as buildings (and those who run them). They have holdings as practises and roles (and those who run them). The place of Erik's clerics in the Rjurik culture, like as advisor/judge/teacher, seems greater than how Haelyn's clerics fit into Anuire (or even Avani in Khinasi). Therefore I wouldn't think of the power of holdings related to Erik being how many people are in a church's congregation. Instead I would think of it as being how many people respect Erik's clerics and practise their culture to the advantage of the clerics.

    And I think of the oaken groves etc not as temples that villagers visit regularly, but as symbols and places that clerics use for rituals.

    Sorontar.

  8. #58
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    Basically, it boils down to this: RP is not about being accepted or respected by the people. It does, conceptually, related to being worshipped by them an abstract, general kind of way.... Regency is the domain level collection of magical energies garnered by a god through worship.
    Acceptance, respect are worship are imo part of a continuum - the respect, admiration, fear etc from thousands possibly being equivalent to the worship from a few hundred fanatics. RP therefore is therefore a measure of how intensely 'your' people think about you, which includes respect, admiration, fear, loyalty, etc, etc - the whole emotional range. Lots of RP means that you are, for good or ill, someone that people see as a mover and shaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    The respect of the people would probably best be illustrated in the BR domain rules through the loyalty numbers of provinces (I think holdings should have loyalty ratings too) for their regents.
    Now this is an interesting one - modify RP collection based on loyalty...

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    The ability to collect regency, however, is a different beastie. Think of character class as being the thematic emphasis of a character. He`s a fighter, cleric, rogue or wizard as a sort of life choice. He embodies certain fighting, preaching, stealing or magical traits and dedicates his experience, body, soul and intellect to becoming an incarnation of that "profession." This compares most closely to the divine concept of "spheres of influence" amongst the gods. Character classes relate to specific holdings (all regents collect RP from provinces) in ways that relate to their personal choices in life.
    Well, that depends on how you see class. If it is simply a collection of skills and powers, it may have little if anything to do with the characters 'life choice' - whether fighter, wizard or rogue one could still be an upright moral preacher of the true god for example. With the focus of 4e on adventure play the class chosen becomes increasingly irrelevant for domain play, while many systems that could be used in BR don't have the concept of class at all which is increasingly a holdover from earlier versions in D&D.

    Add to that the idea of low level characters being great rulers - the adventure class means relatively little to them as their life is primarily that of ruler. Ask Aeric Boruine what he is and he would say archduke, ruler, or suchlike - not sword-swinger. He might stretch to 'general' but fundamentally he is not someone who makes their way through life via a strong swordarm - he uses armies that hold thousands of them...

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    So, thematically, the relationship between character class and regency isn't one of respect or acceptance. Many regents collect RP from holdings in which they are reviled and even rebelled against.
    Any number of gods of fear, trickery, murder, etc are deemed to gain power from people who wish to avoid them as well as those who follow them. One does not need to love King John to kneel when he passes . Jaison Raenech or Gavin Tael may be not be loved, but by the gods they are feared and respected - and no peasant doubts that their life hangs on their masters whim or who that master is - so both should gain RP from their realms.

    Osoerde also shows a good example of how you reflect a split population - William has some holdings which reflect areas where the love for William / freedom outweighs the fear of Raenech for example. Loyalty levels could be used to fine tune this approach significantly albeit at increased book-keeping cost.

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