Blood Abilities: Domain Level

[kgauck]

A player designs his character with a "philosophy" and innate natural behavior - part of that process should involve looking for a bloodline derivation that "matches" that behavior and not one that grants abilites that they like.

Absolutly!

[Vicente]

While I agree players should choose derivations that fit in their player concepts and ideas, the problem with derivations is the same as with the 2e Paladin: they are related to a "behavior" (aligment).

If a player wants to play a sneaky type, that loves secrets, silent, lonely but willing to help others, she will probably see that a Rogue fits (mechanically) much better my idea than a Fighter. And maybe Azrai will fit her idea (mechanically too) better than Anduiras (just an example, I don't remember the blood powers of each). I don't see any problem thinking in that way, the player choosed things that worked well with her idea.

But if you tie derivations with aligments like some classes did you start entering a world full of strange things and situations. And more if there's no mechanic behind it but rather some blurred explanations that 100 people will understand in 100 different ways...

Either way, if a player chooses the derivation and she knows what are the advantages for choosing it, and she chooses willingly one that doesn't help her, well, her call. It's like if the same player builds a Str 8 Fighter because it fits better her idea of her character. I don't see problems with that.

[kgauck]

If a player wants to play a sneaky type, that loves secrets, silent, lonely but willing to help others, she will probably see that a Rogue fits (mechanically) much better my idea than a Fighter. And maybe Azrai will fit her idea (mechanically too) better than Anduiras (just an example, I don't remember the blood powers of each). I don't see any problem thinking in that way, the player choosed things that worked well with her idea.

There are three categories, good, indifferent, and bad. Vorynn was a god of secrets, and Azrai was a god of deception. Brenna is a patron of lots of roguish things. Those would all be good matches. Anduiras and Basaia are advocates of law and truth. So unless your rogue is sneaking for those kinds of causes (plausible but narrow), they might be bad matches. The other derivations, Reynir and Masela, are indifferent, neither helping nor conflicting with the character concept.

I wonder why someone would want to play a scoundrel but picks Anduiras for a derivation. Do they worship Haelyn too? Do they go about swearing oaths to behave chivalrously too? When does the player start making choices based on their character concept?

If there's no mechanic behind it but rather some blurred explanations that 100 people will understand in 100 different ways...

Welcome to role playing.

[Vicente]

There are three categories, good, indifferent, and bad. Vorynn was a god of secrets, and Azrai was a god of deception. Brenna is a patron of lots of roguish things. Those would all be good matches.

Not if you want to create a player with a really good heart. For that kind of "behavior" they range from "normal but not really fitting" (Vorynn and Brenna) to "not fitting at all" (Azrai).

Welcome to role playing.

That's a really weak argument to defend a badly designed thing sorry.

[kgauck]

Not if you want to create a player with a really good heart. For that kind of "behavior" they range from "normal but not really fitting" (Vorynn and Brenna) to "not fitting at all" (Azrai).

Lets look as Scions of Brenna, which you reject.
Marlae Roesone
Erik Danig
James Ardannt
Antia Maricoere

Two of these are regents of temples of Haelyn. Marlae Roesone is clearly supposed to be a good guy, and I think Erik Danig as well. If these guys don't have good enough hearts, I'm not sure what kind of sneaky rogue you're thinking of. Sure there are a lot of guilders and other kinds of rogues, so I'm not sure why this isn't actually a perfect fit.

That's a really weak argument to defend a badly designed thing sorry.

Actually its not poorly designed, its the heart and soul of role playing. You pick a set of behavioral characteristics and then you act them out (that is role play them). I'm not sure what role playing is, if its not about staking out a character concept and then bringing that to life at the gaming table.

[irdeggman]

While I agree players should choose derivations that fit in their player concepts and ideas, the problem with derivations is the same as with the 2e Paladin: they are related to a "behavior" (aligment).

Unfortuneately that is the very core of bloodline derivations ans laid out in the original material.

But if you tie derivations with aligments like some classes did you start entering a world full of strange things and situations. And more if there's no mechanic behind it but rather some blurred explanations that 100 people will understand in 100 different ways...

Who said they were "tied" to classes. I repeatedly said they were tied to behavior and that some classes made a better fit - not that any would not be possible (or allowed).


I also pointed out that 4th ed doesn't contain any "penalties" everything is in terms of bonuses.

So a certain derivation gives "bonuses" to certain behaviour types (which will probably correspond to certain classes).

If a player chooses to go a different route then he doesn't get the bonuses but likewise doesn't have any penalties.

For example the tiefling race gives bonuses to things that relate to being a warlock. This doesn't mean that a tiefling fighter is not allowed - only that the combination is not an optimal match.

I think that the 4th ed mechanics match very well with this concept for bloodline derivation.

[Vicente]

Probably I explained myself pretty badly. I agree with derivation powers been more related to several classes as some races are more suited to several classes too. But not on the alignment thing (I think I said the word enough times in my previous posts as to make it clear ).

One example:

- take 100 people who know the game. Give them an attack modifer, give them an AC, and ask them the number needed to hit. All 100 will come to the same number. That's a well designed rule.

- take 100 people who know the game. Tell them a situation and an action taken by a paladin and ask them if the action was good or evil. Probably the 100 people won't agree unless it's a very extreme situation. Forcing alignment and acts by a class is not good design and pretty useless too. Same applies to relating derivations with aligments. Taking that rule out doesn't hurt interpretation (as if you needed rules for that...).

Another thing:

I haven't found anywhere Brenna alignment, but Sera is Chaotic Neutral, so as the closer (or one of the closers) follower of Brenna I will suppose their alignments where equal.

While irrdeggman seems to support that derivation and alignments are somewhat tied (although I'm not sure, if that's not what you said, forget about the following), kgauck is nice enough to post regents with Brenna bloodline that are regents of temples of a LG god (I don't have RoE to check their actual alignments, I bet most of them aren't CN).

While it's true that some people with Azrai derivations become Awnsheghlien or derivate towards evil acts, not all of them suffer this fate and no where the books say they can't be as happy and behave equally as an Anduiras scion. If that's possible, trying to tie the derivation and the alignment is again a bad call.

kgauck says it quite well later on: "you pick a set of behavioral characteristics". That's very different than "you are enforced into a set of behavioral characteristics". A player should design his character freely and as he likes the most. If he wants to pick a specific derivation to support his background story, perfect. If he wants to pick a derivation because he likes the powers more, perfect too. Saying that one way is how it should be done is simply not true, it's a matter of personal taste.

But well, to try to not lose the post in off-topic ramblings. I think is a good idea to have some derivations fit better in some classes as some races do, as irdeggman posted in his Tiefling example.

[Rowan]

Gods are inherently tied to a specific archetype of behavior and often an alignment. Having a bloodline empowered with the god's essence should have some ramifications, whether the person ends up fighting those inclinations or embraces them.

Some of the original gods can be said to be associated with an alignment in particular and probably fosters tendencies of the same; they and the rest can also be associated with specific traits. I don't think we should divorce the derivations from these traits, though again, as I've said above, characters can choose to embrace them or deny them.

I would propose:
Anduiras: lawful good, honor, justice, nobility, war, law, wind/air
Basaia: good, reason, enlightenment, fire, sun
Brenna: unaligned, trickery, traveling, luck, selfishness
Masela: unaligned, the sea, water, weather, nurturing
Reynir: unaligned, the wilds, earth, balance, nature, rage, survival, self-sufficiency
Vorynn: unaligned, mystery, magic, the moon, night, secrets, rage, power/ambition
Azrai: evil

[bbeau22]

I see what you guys are saying. I never really DM'd in the idea that certain derivations pulled people to a certain alignment, but on the other hand certain derivations lend itself to certain classes .... which many NPC naturally followed into those classes because it fit them.

The only exception to this was Azari which did pull people towards evil acts.

I think it is a great DMing tool when creating personalities for many of the NPC's that they take the old derivations as a tool, but I wouldn't write any of that into offical rules.

-BB

[irdeggman]

Book of Regency (pgs 16+)

The blood of Cerilia affects the scion as well.

Regents, especially, find themselves manipulated by their bloodlines. Few scions of Anduiras can resist the call to battle; those of Reynir’s blood hearken to the trees and animals of the forest.

And of course, Azrai’s evil taint compels the unwary and unfortunate, corrupting their hearts and minds against the good of the people Cerilia.

Finally, it explains long-range effects bloodlines can have on their

scions—especially scions of Azrai.

As a result of possessing a signature ability, a scion may feel certain "pulls" toward or away f rom actions of a particular nature. Sometimes, these mystic tugs steer the scion into situations where he might use the ability in a manner that seems fitting to the old god from whom it is derived. In more general cases, the pull simply guides the character toward actions that would seem consistent with the old god’s nature.

This tendency can often cause problems for characters whose personal missions, alignments, or character classes do not harmonize perfectly with the bloodline they possess. For example , a dwarf scion might have the bloodline of Masela and the sea song blood ability. Although Cerilian dwarves do not have a fondness for water, this particular dwarf might "hear" the call of a babbling brook or the crash of waves on a shore when his bloodline wants him to get close to the water—an uncomfortable situation for the dwarf.

I think these qotes help to emphasize where I am getting my basis for how bloodline derivations tend to govern (or draw) a scion to a certain behavior. I knew I didn't make it up on my own.