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  1. #21
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    Okay, I haven't read all of these yet and I don't yet have my 4e books (though I've followed much of the development online).

    It seems to me, though, that there is some mixed discussion of adventure-oriented powers in this thread. In the other bloodlines thread, I think we agreed that adventure-oriented powers (the majority of current 2e and 3e bloodline powers) would be tied to character level and be added to the list of class abilities or feats that a character could take (or maybe characters will even get additional feats or powers just so that they can buy a few of these on top of normal class abilities, I don't know yet).

    If this thread is focused on realm-level domain powers, then we should keep the discussion to those things, like what Sorontar had proposed. Realm-level powers (per the other thread) will remain completely separate from class and level. Essentially, they will use a system very similar to the 2e/3e one.

    I suggest moving away from a table that you have to reference to know how many realm-level powers you get, though. Perhaps each derivation still has its limitations on realm powers available, and these still fit into Minor, Major, and Great categories, but the number available could be tied to blood score in a different fashion. If we could assign each power a point value based on our estimation of its relative strength (which could then easily be tweaked by the community or each DM if they wish), then each scion would get a number of points to "purchase" blood abilities equal to their bloodline score.

    So, a Major bloodline of 23 might be able to purchase 3 minor power costing 3, 4, and 6, and one major power costing 10, while a Major bloodline of 45 might also be able to purchase two more major powers at costs 10 and 12. If that's too complicated, it could be streamlined so that minor powers all cost 5, major 10, and great 15.

    As for what realm level powers should be, I suggest thinking up things that modify the game like so:
    Allow an additional Court action of a certain type
    Allow a standard action of a certain type to be conducted as a Court action
    Modify any of the various combat variables (unit statistics, terrain or weather effects, hero units, etc.)
    Mimic, in a unique and probably limited fashion, a realm spell
    Alter holding statistics in some fashion (gaining an extra bonus to assisting an action like Espionage or gaining extra GB or RP income from one holding)
    Aid in the resolution of a random event
    Cause a random event

    As for frequency, most powers should only be usable once per domain turn. Stronger bloodlines or weaker powers might be usable once per month. I also could see where some powers might require a little RP or GB to activate.

    In the coming week I'll start posting some of my ideas for possible realm powers, though a number of good ones have already been listed here.

  2. #22
    Rowan,

    Many of your realm blood powers sound good. Start up a new thread with proposed realm blood powers and we can go from there. Then everyone can post ideas and critisims.

    -BB

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    That's the point. The old gods had specializations and that influences the scions. This is setting again, its really not negotiable.
    The issue is, hertiage. You inherit the bloodline, but it shouldn't pigeonhole you into being a wizard with Vorynn's blood (infact there is a vos paladin in the core setting that has Vorynn's blood) 2E made it where Vorynn's ability weren't exclusivly benefical to Wizards. The way classes work now, it will be hard to set something that doesn't.

    The last clause in this statement doesn't make sense. Please rephrase.
    What I mean is: Although courage (as an example) is something that best benefits the warriors (defenders in 4e terms), it has a utility to non warriors as well.

    I don't see the problem here. If Vorynn is a sub-optimal mix with fighter, and a player doesn't want it for story reasons, why pick it? Select Anduiras or something else.
    The problem is, we end up punishing players for story reasons.

    Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Both druids and pet masters will come in time, they're supposed to follow in later books. Second both are social roles as much as they are classes, and its perfectly reasonable to have the social role without the class. Given the god of Erik, and the social order of the Rjuirk people, I think we'll always have druids and rangers who are tied to Erik/nature. If you want to use the ranger class to describe an Anuirean robin hood, that's fine. I think we'll see all of what bbeau22 is describing in the 1st year of the game.
    Actually Rangers are now more hard hitting warriors then they are nature bound, a Ranger is either tied to the bow or twin weapons. Either way they deal damage primarily.

    Druids are coming when they release Primal, which may be PHB2 or 3 (2 or 3 years down the road), by not focusing on what May or May not be a druidc power and may or may not be given deffination as such (animal empathy) and instead finding a way to word it where it doesn't rely on primal sources having empathy with animals, we would do better.

    Pet/Master will be 1 creature, which is already crippling Greater Animal Affinity. That or will violate the economy of actions which is why summoning isn't allowed yet. The cleric who does have some 'summon' abilities all use the cleric actions in place of their own, it stands to reason that when a summoner class does appear its more likely to be a leader type who does the same.

    Next, from the looks of the powers, he was focusing on adventure level ones. If adventure level powers are to be worth it they must be on par power wise as current adventure powers and feats, if they fail there (like having empathy with a single type of animals who may or may not be present in an adventure) then they fail to be worthwhile.
    Last edited by aluman; 06-10-2008 at 05:55 PM.

  4. #24
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aluman View Post
    The issue is, hertiage. You inherit the bloodline, but it shouldn't pigeonhole you into being a wizard with Vorynn's blood (infact there is a vos paladin in the core setting that has Vorynn's blood) 2E made it where Vorynn's ability weren't exclusivly benefical to Wizards. The way classes work now, it will be hard to set something that doesn't.
    Not really.

    Vorynn's blood made it a better fit for a wizard.

    Using the 4th ed system (like in races) Vorynn's blood could give a "boost" to wizard powers - very 4th ed and also BR.

    It was also noted that the Vos paladin was totally out of place.

    There was also a paladin with Azrai blood and it painted that he was in constant struggle with his blood line derivation and the pull of Azrai.


    The problem is, we end up punishing players for story reasons.
    Punish is a hard word. A player chose a difficult path - make it one and not just merely a "background" issue with no mechanical challenges.

    What you have to watch for are players who see "choices" as nothing more than mechanical advantages and not role-playing tools (this is an inherent problem with 4th ed as I see it, since it is much more PC game-esqu and less role-playing emphasis. Alignment has pretty much been "neutered" in 4th ed).
    Duane Eggert

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Not really.

    Vorynn's blood made it a better fit for a wizard.

    Using the 4th ed system (like in races) Vorynn's blood could give a "boost" to wizard powers - very 4th ed and also BR.
    I would rather see Vorynn's powers boost things that directly tie into the majority of wizard's abilities, but strictly speaking just wizards.
    Like say, granting bonuses to hit against will defenses and such.
    It was also noted that the Vos paladin was totally out of place.
    More for being vos paladin then for his bloodline/class combination.
    There was also a paladin with Azrai blood and it painted that he was in constant struggle with his blood line derivation and the pull of Azrai.
    I remember the manticore was also a paladin at one point, but his blood was tainted to Azari, and Azari has always been a special case. The others wether good or mildly evil didn't carry the tain. There are evil people with Anduris blood in them, after all.

    Punish is a hard word. A player chose a difficult path - make it one and not just merely a "background" issue with no mechanical challenges.
    Punish is the right word, other scions get special abilities that directly boost their classes, because someone else chose a diffrent path they have no way to directly benifit from it (at least the way the blood abilities seem to be headed) why then bother to be off classed with the blood? The system shouldn't encourage, but neither should it go out of its way to cripple people who want to be 'oddities'.
    What you have to watch for are players who see "choices" as nothing more than mechanical advantages and not role-playing tools (this is an inherent problem with 4th ed as I see it, since it is much more PC game-esqu and less role-playing emphasis. Alignment has pretty much been "neutered" in 4th ed).
    Actually, overall Evil is easier to play in game now then it was. with the loss of the instant detect evil abilities, there is less concern. They did simplfy the alignment, but as I largely ignored alignment in all verisions of DnD (and all other roleplaying games) it hardly matters to me.

  6. #26
    I guess I will just pipe in on two points.

    The first is that of Derivation. The player can choose his or her class and his or her derivation. If she chooses Vornyn Fighter, then she will of course not be as optimized as an Aduiras Fighter. I think taking away the uniqueness of each bloodline dilutes what makes Birthright, well, Birthright.

    As to tying Bloodpowers to level, again I lean towards 2E. Blood powers separates those with the blood of gods int heir veins from those without. If two equally skilled fighters faced each other, the one with a Bloodline would have an advantage. Again, I come back to the title of the setting "Birthright." It is about the actual manifestation of the divine right to rule.

    Just my two cents.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Autarkis View Post
    I guess I will just pipe in on two points.

    The first is that of Derivation. The player can choose his or her class and his or her derivation. If she chooses Vornyn Fighter, then she will of course not be as optimized as an Aduiras Fighter. I think taking away the uniqueness of each bloodline dilutes what makes Birthright, well, Birthright.

    As to tying Bloodpowers to level, again I lean towards 2E. Blood powers separates those with the blood of gods int heir veins from those without. If two equally skilled fighters faced each other, the one with a Bloodline would have an advantage. Again, I come back to the title of the setting "Birthright." It is about the actual manifestation of the divine right to rule.

    Just my two cents.

    I don't think anyone wants to lose that side of Birthright. The Divine Power does flow through them and they are the only ones that can be true rulers of the land, the only ones that can cast true magic. Just a slightly more balanced verison. With blood powers that fighter will get access to abilities that another fighter couldn't think of having.

  8. #28
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    For most minor NPCs, their culture will chose their bloodline. Most of the blooded Rjurik will have Reynir's bloodline. How they then progress in life is up to them. If the blood abilities don't really start revealing themselves until they are in their teens, then it could be thought that this would steer them towards a career that makes the most of their new skills. However, this isn't so. People don't always act like that. There are often over-riding reasons to take alternative paths, e.g. family traditions, community and personal needs. Therefore, I feel that no connection should be forced in BRCS 4e (or any other edition) between class and bloodline.

    When we are talking about PCs, the heroes of the future, whose players tend to chose their bloodlines, I feel that if a player wants to optimise their PC's class, they should just pick an optimal bloodline for that class. This should be a choice of the player, not a requirement in the rules.

    If the bloodline chosen is not optimal, then the player is going to have fun playing with what blood "cards" they have been dealt (or chosen). I chose Reynir for my druid, but the dice chose Long Life, Resistance and Detect Lie. The last two have been great to play adventures with. The Detect Lie even helped me design the PC's attitude to the world. The Long Life has been fairly useless to me, but for the fact that my character looks like a 15 year old when he is actually over 20. However, it would have helped other party members who had years taken off their lives by undead. Only the Detect Lie could be thought to be helpful specifically to a druid in their advisor role within Rjurik communities. However, my druid is an adventurer so that cultural role rarely appears. Instead he uses it for other interactions with NPCs (and party members :^) ).

    So what bloodline is optimal for what PC depends on how you play them. It shouldn't be linked to specific classes.

    Sorontar

  9. #29
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aluman View Post
    The problem is, we end up punishing players for story reasons.
    We do that all the time. When we require a wizard to be blooded; when we don't allow a party with human, elf, lizardman, and gnome; when we reshuffle allies and enemies because of political changes above the level of the PC; any time we impose consequences because of player actions. Selecting a bloodline is a player action that has a consequence no less than selecting a class does.

  10. #30
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    For most minor NPCs, their culture will chose their bloodline. Most of the blooded Rjurik will have Reynir's bloodline. How they then progress in life is up to them. If the blood abilities don't really start revealing themselves until they are in their teens, then it could be thought that this would steer them towards a career that makes the most of their new skills. However, this isn't so. People don't always act like that. There are often over-riding reasons to take alternative paths, e.g. family traditions, community and personal needs. Therefore, I feel that no connection should be forced in BRCS 4e (or any other edition) between class and bloodline.

    Sorontar

    The real key is that in 4th ed there is no "punishing" there is "rewarding".

    No penalties for low ability scores, no racial ability score minuses.

    There are only "bonuses".

    This fits extremely well with the concept of bloodline derivation - some derivations "reward" certain classes and types of behavior.

    IMO it helps if one thinks of derviation like being a specialty cleric in 2nd ed. A deity gave certain "abilities" and spells to his followers and expected a certain behaviour in response (alignment, philosophy, etc). This was a "direction" that they were to follow.

    Blood lines were a direct result of the death of the deity - so they should have a much greater impact an a scion's life.

    They were never intended to be a mere "add on" to an existing game, they were always supposed to reflect the very nature of the setting itself.

    The draw of the blood is a very real thing and should be reflected. While only Azrai is detailed (although I think that this draw is also touched on in the BoR and some of the new blood abilities added in there) it is a very tangeable thing.

    I have always hated when players shose Azrai as their blood line derivation because it had the best abilities but then wanted to ignore the draw to chaotic and evil behavior (and the potential for eventually becomng an "awnie"). This is the type of behavior that should never, IMO, be "rewarded".

    A player designs his character with a "philosophy" and innate natural behavior - part of that process should involve looking for a bloodline derivation that "matches" that behavior and not one that grants abilites that they like.
    Duane Eggert

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