Races: Halfling

[fbaker4]

But the 2nd ed rules clearly state:

[pg 8, 2nd col, 1st para, 2nd sent] "This allows them to detect evil..."

And so I think that it belongs in the setting.

Would you agree or disagree, and why?

I should add that I think it too strong an ability, but it's in the 2nd ed., and I'm loathe to counter it from personal perspective only.

[kgauck]

In classic D&D good and evil were concrete forces no less than the elements. If one means evil as in a force from hell, Azrai, the negative energy of the Shadow, the I don't think anyone objects to detecting evil.

If you mean people who think bad thoughts, detect evil is a story wrench of monkey proportions.

I'd be happy to see the name changed to reflect the more limited interpretation.

[fbaker4]

Yes, i see your distinction; I have it, though could re-read it; would you say that Evil was an _elemental_ force in 4e? Or some other kind of discrete aspect? Or is it more aetherial? Because I agree, that if the Evil is concrete, then it may be detected, but if it's simply some fickle emotion, then it shouldn't be.

[Sir Tiamat]

But the 2nd ed rules clearly state:

[pg 8, 2nd col, 1st para, 2nd sent] "This allows them to detect evil..."

And so I think that it belongs in the setting.

Would you agree or disagree, and why?

I should add that I think it too strong an ability, but it's in the 2nd ed., and I'm loathe to counter it from personal perspective only.

Yes but in 2nd (and 3rd for that matter) evil was an important part of DnD cosmology. There existed all kinds of spells and powers pertaining to good, evil, law and chaos. In 2nd and 3rd I would not do away with detect evil, because of this importance. Still, it was problematic that NPC’s would first undergo an alignment check in order to determine whether they would be disregarded as untrustworthy on beforehand. Now not even the Paladin is left with the ability to detect evil, why would the Halfling retain it simply because it had the ability back in second?

Don’t get me wrong, I do not really mind detect evil in 2nd and 3rd, but if we are going to create a 4th edition birthright, I guess detect evil has got to go. And a similar case might be made for detect undead. I like the fact that players do not know who to trust or not on beforehand, especially in a low/rare-magic setting as birthright.

[bbeau22]

I do think many of agree that detect evil was problematic. As a DM I would often have to make sure some characters had a way to protect themselves from the divinations. That isn't a problem the first or second time ... but when the characters see it over and over it becomes lame.

I think in Birthright with so many different characters with different motivations, I am good with losing the detect evil ability. The blood ability that allows for characters to sense good intentions or bad intenstions towards them can remain, because it doesn't give the alignment up.

-BB

[AndrewTall]

You could do the same with the halflings - they detect people intending them serious harm - the ogre wandering by won't be noticed (unless he is hungry), the guy having bad day who just feels like beating someone up (but is usually not a bad guy) would. This removes the idea of evil as a concrete force and makes it more personalised to the recipient. Like 'detect lie' detect evil was vastly over-used, particularly by paladins of course!

Personally I see the 'detect evil' as a hangover from the shadow world, which is often seen as evil (although not always). As such I'd rather have it linked to detecting undead simply because many of them are linked to the shadow world - but I'd make clear to players that they shouldn't expect to pick up every undead, and that it could be drowned out by other shadow world stuff - it should see use as a Mcguffin to help find portals, etc.

Overall detect undead is only an issue if used to pick up concealed undead - a warning of a nearby ghost, zombie army is nice - but generally these things can be found anyway. Breaking the cover of the lich shrouded in illusion is more game breaking.

Perhaps best of all I'd make it a pure Mcguffin power to detect otherworldly stuff - it would pick up some elves, fey, demons, etc, etc - probably act as a warning signal of 'generic bad stuff', 'bad magic' and 'uh-oh, funky magic chick warning'. I'm not sure how that balances in 4e but munchkins rarely play halflings anyway.

[kgauck]

Detect Evil is a tool just like anything else. That means it should have a defense.

Since I tend to analogize everything to war, I will do that here as well. There are two forms of war, maneuver and attrition.

Maneuver attempts to attack and enemy when his defenses are down, unprepared, or mis-prepared. So in this case, a divination should be successful when someone doesn't expect it or expects something else. Perhaps I head fake that I will Detect Lies and instead Detect Evil. In 4e this is because I bluffed and you failed your insight check. It might be because I snuck into a place where you didn't know you were being observed, or mistook the observer for something benign , a waitress, for example. One might analogize to eavesdropping. If I can catch you unaware so that I can listen to your secret conversation, I can Detect Evil on you with your defenses down. You may still have passive defenses, but active defenses are down.

Attrition is where two sides spend or bid against one another both sides hoping to deplete the resources of the other side until at some point one side runs out and basically collapses. If I suspect I have more magical resources, I might spend them to first reduce your active defenses and then penetrate your passive defenses. But this will only work if I believe that I have more resources, otherwise I'll spend them all and you'll still have defenses.

Now in 4e, this kind of thing can be an at-will power, a per encounter power, daily, and a ritual. Like all the other things that are no longer tracked to eliminate bookkeeping, this system is easy to use, but it reduces attrition to "who gets a luck roll first", though maneuver is still possible.

Something like this could be an encounter, presumably a Wis vs Will attack. Success would reveal information.

However, Discern Lies is a ritual, and so unless there is a good setting reason to do otherwise, the halfling ability would be a ritual as well. But that might be the case, since the halfling ability is more of an instinct or aspect of perception than it is an actual divination, like the spell was. It was an innate ability, not a consultation with the heavens. Even so, if a halfling has to meditate, concentrate, or get himself attuned, it can still be a rital.

As others have mentioned, the halfling is really just sensitive to shadow world things. Not precisely evil, but the taint of the Shadow World. This is not the only example of this particular power. Though they were spells, we had Determine Cerilian Origin and Detect Elven Influence. All three of these seem to be of a piece, and should be treated the same way.

A kind of ritual or ability to detect Shadow World taint, Sidhelien influence, or Cerilian origin does seem to be of a similar power, even if the power is expressed differently.

[irdeggman]

As far as halflings and detect evil - I see it more as a danger sense.

Something they developed over the years of corruption of their home.

So using it as a means of getting bonuses to initiative or something like that makes a lot more sense to me and seems to fit the "survival" instincts they seem to have. Stepping through shadow world portals is likewise a survival mechanism in my view.

[Pabloj]

Just trying to contribute my 2 cents.

D&D 4th PHB 2 is coming this month and I believe it includes lots of "racial" material, like parangon paths and more feats, and also "backgrounds" like the ones used on Scales of War Adv Path and Forgotten Realms. So there is a lot of material to work with coming soon.

On the racial power, I would simply swap the eladrin and halfing powers, and as it was said, give them the "sense magic" ability with a bonus or such, and include all oddities as undead under the "magic umbrella".

As for the long distance travels, we can simply create a feat that lets the halfling do teleportation rituals without money expenditure, but lots of other restrictions: place, things teleported, weather, etc.

As for detect Evil and such, I say good riddance to those. I think it is a AD&D feature much more than a Birthright feature.

[dundjinnmasta]

I just gave the halflings the "Shadow Jaunt" ability of the Shadai-kai because the flavor seemed to fit the halflings dimension door ability of 2e. I agree that setting should trump edition but I believe it is the setting flavor that should trump it and not the hard-rules. Halflings were connected to the Shadow World and could dimension door so when looking for 4e counterparts for flavor and ability I thought the Shadow Jaunt power was fitting.

You want to update Birthright to the modern gaming age or else you may as well just continue playing 2e Birthright. 3.x Birthright changed some of the flavor and feel considerably if you asked me and thus I think 2e was superior for purity but 4e has alot to offer as well without stomping on the setting.