Starting the 4e conversion

[bbeau22]

There is a lot to look at. I don't have the books yet but will in the next week or two. We should give it at least a few weeks of release before we start the conversion. We need to have a solid understanding of the rules before jumping in. That being said ... I am not opposed to throwing out ideas on how we might tackle it now.

- Skill conversion is pretty easy. BR specific skills can be grouped into the larger skill selections they have. The DC for success would have to change according the new rules. People can't stack skills anymore like they could.

- Races are always a bit different for BR than the Player's Handbook. We have 5 different races of humans to account for. If 4th edition gives human a bonus feat we will just have to pick that feat for each race. If 4th edition gives them +1 to skill checks we will just have to give each race a +2 on certain skill types. Really it isn't too hard.

- For domain actions lets try to base it off of 3rd edition rules we got. They are balanced well and will probably fit into a 4th edition more cleanly than the old 2nd edition rules.

- Blood Scores, abilities, and powers are going to be the pain of it. For people who haven't read my previous emails .... try reading or looking up how the Star Wars Saga Edition handles Jedi and Jedi powers. Might be a good model to work from.

-BB

[Wilenburg]

I would use a combination of 2nd and 3rd edition, from the 3rd edition has a lot of good base comcepts like feats the blood abilities can be used in combination of the two addition. As for a quick and dirty for character development I think the easiest way to proceed is to work on the following order
1) determined Blood abilities and Bloodline Scores, and Usurpation and Vestirue Rules
2) Races unique to Cerilia
3) Skills, Feats and Talent tree additions to the current Classes
4) Making New Classes Unique to Cerilia
5) Items Unique to Cerilia and Abilities (if Realm Level item then it should be addresses at the Realm Level)

With these we can make cerilia usable at the adventuring level

For campaign Level should work on the Following ways
1) Determine the Realm Level actions
2) Determine Collection of GB and RP
3) Determine the way armies are used
4) Determine the use of Realm Spells and Realm Level Blood Abilities.
5) Items Realm Level abilites

For Atlas Level
1) Break down Cerilia into Regions
2) Determine MOnsters Stats and abilities (Including Awnsheigh)
3) Other important NPC
4) Make sure it is 3.X and 4th edition Compatible

The should work and the source for all of the editions and stats should be put in twice one as 3rd edition and one 4th edition then the community as a whole can use the atlas as one source book instead of making two books with relatively the same information.

But as for the atlas we should make 2 types
1) quick and dirty with 2 pg description for each realm
2) Detailed version like the one that the Atlas team was working on before it fell apart (which I would like to revive and get the ball going again) except this time make it more a forum based instead of just a small team to work on it since cerilia is a very big content. With this way we can use all of the people but have a couple of people to work on formatting it into a consistent format.

Cheers all.

[Rey]

I say we finish the whole BR as it is, and then we can make our own 5E.

Some play with 2E rules, others with 3E, some mix it (I do). Add a 4E and you will never get anything done because you'd be arguing about weather it's a proficiency, a skill, an ability or a power. You'd need a math equation to work it out.

BR is made for 2E and I like to play it that way, maybe put in couple of 3E rules just to enhance some points, but generally it's 2E for me. I'm happy when some new fan material kicks in and my face turns sour when I see a good PS totally converted to some 67th E that I must rethink over for weeks until I can incorporate it in a game.

[Fearless_Leader]

Understandably, a lot of players remained with 2E. Equally as understandable, some will remain with 3.xE. Nonetheless, I believe it is absolutely essential to begin work on a 4E conversion, so as to keep the setting relevant and to continually recruit new players (I don't know how many players were first exposed to BR through the 3E conversions, especially the BRCS, but it is a non-zero number). Whatever the case, there are now a substantial number of players that don't own any of the hard copy products. Further, from a strictly legal standpoint, the official WOTC endorsed BR website will likely need to make the conversion in order to keep its status.

I will likely begin working on a simple conversion, along the lines of the old conversion manuals that came out before the BRCS, sometime in the near future - for the simple reason that those I play with are eagerly making the switch. My philosophy for such conversions is to keep as much of the setting unaltered as possible, and to change the rules as need be. I believe that it would be a simple matter to convert blood powers into at-will, encounter, and daily powers. The races from the base setting will need some conversion, but this shouldn't pose any major problems. The biggest issue, I believe, is in the classes. Some of the class powers are simply not compatible with a setting that is rare-magic and tends toward gritty realism.

[bbeau22]

Sounds good. I have started converting the old powers to just that. At Will, per encounter and per day. We could even include a per week for Birthright. I will post of course once it is complete to give people an idea of what we are talking about.

The real question on blood powers is how do people access them. Do we stick to the old 3rd edition access or make it more 4th edition friendly. Using the feat system to take powers might be the answer. We could also call each derivation a Paragon Path that the character has access to. They could take these more powerful powers there. Sorry if I am using the term wrong.

I am looking forward to the process.

-BB

[Rey]

OK, so wiki has to be tripled. One page for 2E, one for 3E, one for 4E. I hope there will be someone with enough time and will to convert pages to all E's. For example, there will be original 2E page and it will link to a 3E and 4E converted material. It's settled then.

[AndrewTall]

Rey, much of the wiki is 'fluff' rather than 'crunch' - so relatively little should need to be in triplicate - not that we have much 2e anyway.

To me the key questions 4e raises are:

1. Do we have a totally separate (but using a similar mechanic) realm system including bloodline abilities etc to show how scions are far more able than / different to the unblooded, etc without impacting adventure play at all.

2. Do we have adventure level powers for the blooded? If so are they additional to the skills/feats/abilities of standard 4e characters, or are they swaps, in which case do we restrict to one kind of swap or allow the blooded a few extra alternatives across the board.

3. Do we restrict powers for unblooded, weakly blooded, etc characters - much like spell selections were used to mage spellcasters different. I'm not at all familiar with 4e but if the powers can be grouped nil/low/medium/high magic for example, we could restrict them to unblooded/minor bloodline/major bloodline/great bloodline etc - the mechanic would still be 4e, still balanced, but the scions would get the 'cool stuff' and be visually more intimidating - even though the unblooded would be just as effective.

I'd hope that domain play can go with the 3e system - aside from RP collection it shouldn't require any alteration, although some people had feats affecting realm play also. The 2e system randomness was a pain, although I preferred the court system (3e gets too bulky with actions everywhere).

[Rowan]

Rey, there is a certain inevitability here that is a fact of life. Fearless_Leader has spoken of it in terms of keeping BR relevant and also in "official" fansite legal requirements, and is probably correct.

Adventure terms at least will need to be expressed in 4e primarily. A wiki allows anyone to create content of any edition, and some people will likely not convert their fan contributions. No big deal. Most fan contributions are story-driven, anyway. There is no need to convert all content to one or all versions.

bbeau, I think we may want to expand bloodlines beyond the "Paragon Path" paradigm. The various powers (at-will, encounter, per day, per week/month in BR time scale) are all assigned levels to help administer both how they are acquired and how powerful they are.

This being the case, we could either assign levels to the bloodline powers (something akin to Minor powers being equivalent to the Heroic tier 1-10; Major = 11-20/Paragon tier; Great =21-30/Epic-or-whatever-they-call-it tier). Or we could use powers of similar levels as guidelines, but rather than breaking them down into 10 levels each, continue to assign them to Minor, Major, and Great (perhaps equivalent to 5th level, 15th level, and 25th level powers).

The trouble with levels is that while I would actually kind of like bloodline powers to become more emphasized by allowing them to be more numerous or powerful, I would not want to see them tied to character level. An Avan prince, whether a green squire or a veteran knight, has a mighty bloodline, and that should be reflected in their blood powers. It will help us keep a low level setting, as well, with the emphasis more on Bloodline and deeds than on level.

[Rey]

Rey, much of the wiki is 'fluff' rather than 'crunch' - so relatively little should need to be in triplicate - not that we have much 2e anyway.

That is true. But it seems that the work will never get finished in any E.

Rey, there is a certain inevitability here that is a fact of life. Fearless_Leader has spoken of it in terms of keeping BR relevant and also in "official" fansite legal requirements, and is probably correct.

He is right, I'll confirm that. And we can all hope that BR line will be reactivated and the hard work of the fans confirmed as the equal. Or forever roam the Shadow World of the net.

[Rowan]

I don't think the work can or will ever be finished, so long as we want a living world.