Battle rules

[cccpxepoj]

we used to play battles in birthright campaign using warhammer rules, you can easily adopt armies for, you have higher level characters represented as champions and heroes, the advantage of the terrain, the use of magic is obvious on battlefield, problem is that you need lot of figurines, lot of space and battles lasting longer then using the birthright rules. The biggest problem are the figurines cause you need the lot of them( and that cost money) and well i like them to be painted so it require more of your free time, and as older i am the less i have it

[bbeau22]

I have been tossing around the idea of using Warhammer rules and have most od the conversion in place. If you have anything written up on how you went about converting I would love to hear it.

-BB

[AndrewTall]

I think thats a great Idea Andrew! It takes away the temptation of just mustering a ton of crap to win wars, the way I see either good units need to be better or some thing needs to be in place like your talking about. Im not familiar with Rjurik winds can you post in more detail how this system works or where I could look at it. Also it sounds like your strategy skill is more or less the Warcraft skill in the play-test.

Rjurik Winds is a PBEM currently in turn 13 run by Charles Dupin de St Cyr the current battle rules are found on: http://www.rjurikwinds.com/rw_battle_rules.html

RW uses birmail so RW is a 2e game. Skills are therefore out - non-weapon proficiencies are in. The rules have been an ongoing work in-progress and some of the cannier players are currently writing a software engine to revise the system significantly - one change is that a 'battle' will represent a weeks worth of fighting rather than a single engagement.

I'm not sure that it is possible to have a '300' moment (something that is difficult to permit in any system) and the width of a D20 is a pain (although battles should be fairly random) but it's worked pretty well to date.

[kgauck]

A 300 moment requires that several condition be met.

1) A narrow approach so that the numerically superior attacker must send in one unit at a time.
2) The numerically superior attacker doesn't know what heavy infantry is or what it can do.
3) Elite heavy infantry in defense

Generally getting #2 is the hardest.

[Vicente]

I would say a "300" moment (as portrayed in the comic/film) is just that the Spartans are heroes while the enemy soldiers are level 0 NPCs. Add a narrow fighting space to that and you are set.

[cccpxepoj]

I have been tossing around the idea of using Warhammer rules and have most od the conversion in place. If you have anything written up on how you went about converting I would love to hear it.

-BB

I have a club of warhammer fans here in my hometown, and they are playing it often, i can ask them if they have something written. We used the standard warhammer rules for battle, there is no limit in points, every unit in the birthright is a unit on field heroes and champions must be recruited, so in general you have weaker armies then in original game, but the good thing is that u can mix them from different races( or countries ).
There is complete goblin armies with Trolls and Giants for goblin realms, now there is ogres to.
Two type of elves for their armies, the armies of dwarfs have slight problem of lacking the gunpowder but they are still tough foes.
Gnols can be represented with beast-men armies.
We used for bretonian armies for the Anurians with the mix of some empire units, and Brecht as mostly empire units, and for the most of the Vos chaos warriors.
There is small problem with the armies of Rjurick and Khinasi but the can be made with mixing some merc. units and some regular.

[kgauck]

I would say a "300" moment (as portrayed in the comic/film) is just that the Spartans are heroes while the enemy soldiers are level 0 NPCs. Add a narrow fighting space to that and you are set.

I'd say the only difference between the comic/film version and the history is the look (and the roll of the Thespians). That a little over 2000 men held off an army so large doesn't get much more dramatic , just cooler to look at, because its on film.

[Rowan]

Actually, I think the existing battle rules work fairly well for a "300" moment. Since I like these theoreticals, I'll give an example recreating the Battle of Thermopylae below based on existing rules in the BR setting. A uniquely BR scenario could easily be arranged similar to this--the Battle of Mhelliviene seems to be the nearest story example.

Treat the Spartans as 2 units of Elite Infantry with all of the adders you can stack on them (Shield Wall, Toughness, Morale+, Melee+, Defense+). Even give them a Missile attack and Missile+ with their spears. Possibly add on another Hit or double Toughness, and give them the special abilities of Pike units (double damage on charge, opportunity attack before melee range is closed). Then stack a Hero unit at least EL14 to each with a Battlewise commander with a huge Lead and Warcraft. They may have even had the blessing of some of their gods (Battle Bless, maybe also magical Battle Arms or Battle Armor). The Thespians and others would be lesser units, but still more elite than the Persians.

Terrain would be as Kgauck said, although the bodies may have created a Limited Fortification situation eventually, in favor of the Spartans. Treat all the Persian forces except the Immortals as Mercenaries (lower morale).

So 2 Spartan units with scores possibly higher than: Melee +15, Missile +9, Defense 23, Hits 5, Move 1, Morale +21, +2 vs. Irregulars and Mounted, attack first in a round, Defense +4 vs. Missiles, plus any terrain modifiers. Commander with Warcraft and Lead probably over +20 each.

Attacking 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 vs. mercs, it's a mass slaughter, with most enemies being routed before their second attempt to strike that Defense of 23. The Spartans hit on almost every attack, and their enemies strike them hardly ever. Mathematically, I think most units only have a 10% chance to inflict a hit. With half of them routing after the first Spartan spear attack (not even getting a chance to try to strike), that leaves 1 in 20 units hitting, if that. So to kill off the Spartan units (not including the 3+ units of Thespians), you'd be looking at the Spartans carving through 200 units. Each assault would be routed and repulsed, forcing Xerxes and his commanders to take time to reorganize and recover from rout, accounting for the three days.

The Immortals would pose a minor threat to the Spartans, likely being Elite Infantry with Toughness and Melee+ or Defense+, and possibly Hero units attached. The final hail of arrows that brought them down would just be the inevitability of some Hits occurring (on 20's) from a constant barrage against the Spartan shield wall.

Well, talk about over-analyzed! Anyway, these situations can be created in BR. The key is, though, that on an open field, surrounded, those Spartans would fall pretty quickly. They'd do some serious damage, still, but they wouldn't last.

[Vicente]

I'd say the only difference between the comic/film version and the history is the look (and the roll of the Thespians). That a little over 2000 men held off an army so large doesn't get much more dramatic , just cooler to look at, because its on film.

Well, the comic/film is highly flawed in the weapons and armors representation in both armies (Hoplites equipment was ages ahead of their enemies). And numbers of both armies continue to be a heated subject of arguments and research (your 2000 estimates are pretty low).

Although the feat performed by the Greeks is nevertheless impressive.

[kgauck]

We know their were 7000 citizens of Sparta in the Archaic age, and 5000 Spartiates in the Classical age. There was an earthquake at the beginning of the Peloponesian War, so the larger estimate of population is probably closer. Sparta did not send a main body to hold at Thermopylea because they were holding back for a main battle later, what occurred at Platea. So the number of participants must be small. The number give is given by contemporaries, and the numbers such that they could easily be counted, unlike the Persian army which must be estimated based on such things as supply and how long it took to cross the Hellespont, and such things.