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  1. #11
    Druids are divine casters but why do they need a public place of worship for people to go to? There is really no rule for it. Druids in other worlds and realms have shrines and groves where people could go to meet with druids but certainly followers didn't typically go there to pray ... simply meet with the wise druids. This can still be accomplished without the need of temple levels.

    First figure the druids can and still will have palaces. Of course they will more likely be held in beautiful opwn wooded areas but still have the same effect as a a stone palace.

    Next are druids that people can consult. They could be on hand in the communities and in the groves. They can impart wisdom and give knowledge to the community of natural events in the province. They won't be there to control or influence the populace like a typical temple would be.

    I just think we might be needlessly forcing a character to maintain two types of holdings, which means they will have to defend both holdings from outsiders. What happens if a druid holds a level 9 source and a level 0 temple and they lose the temple? They would suddenly be neutured and can't use that source to protect. Too easy to exploit.

    How about source is attached to realm spells ... but if they wish to spend regency to support any actions in the province they will need a temple, which many will want because you can battle guilds actions and ruler actions that effect the land.

    -BB

  2. #12
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    bbeau22 makes a good point. If even a zero level temple is required for realm spells, then there is a huge vulnerability for such a druid.

    Certainly druids want to have temple holdings. This is the ideological holding, and druids want to influence others towards their ideology. So I think they'll tend to have them anyway. But wilderness provinces should be a bastion of strength for the druid, not his primary vulnerability.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Just one question, if the druids(aka priests of Erik) can access the source holdings should it be allowed to the priest of Ruornil as well ?
    Cause I'am running a campaign in Hjorig where Rjurick follow the path of Lirorn, the option of source holdings for their priests will be interesting change of events.
    Last edited by cccpxepoj; 04-27-2008 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #14
    That is an interesting thought ... They certainly have reason to want it. There is already an example of this ... the Temple of Rilni in Khinasi controls the source in Mairada. The book doesn't go into detail on how they got the source in the first place but it does say that they allow some wizards access as needed.

    I would put it as a purely secondary function. Because of their relationship with Rournil they might have the ability to locate source in a province .... but not be able to tap into it like a trained wizard. This would give them the ability to control it and protect it, but otherwise it wouldn't do them a ton a good. They would be better off having a loyal wizard control and use it for them.

    -BB

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I grant priests of Ruornil free multi-classing with wizards and limited ability to use their clerical spell points for arcane spells. So I would say that the expected way for a temple regent of Ruornil to use sources would be to have some levels of wizard.

  6. #16
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    so for priests of other gods is impossible, for priests of Ruornil it is possible with multi-classing, and it is free for the priests of Erik(aka the druids) i think it is a bit dis-balancing.
    The way i see it, if the druids hold the source holdings they must be limited from temple holdings, which is controlled by the priests(clerics) of Erik.

  7. #17
    Well first off any priest that is multi-classed as a wizard has access to temples and source. Rournil was just the example used. There is no difference between them and any other priest.

    Second, priests of Erik are like any other priests also. They use temples in populated lands to gain access to their realm spells. They have no option to tap into source. Priest and Druids are different.

    Druids are the strange case and what we were talking about. Druids can be allowed to tap into the source like a wizard to cast their druidic realm spells. If they have the proper skills they can also gain regency from temples (as could any person that is blooded.) But as a druid, they won't have access to the correct skills unless they use up some feats, and the very nature of their class precludes them from building up temples in major cities. So the class itself has restrictions in place.

    As a DM, if I saw a character play a druid and start building up their temple holdings in the Imperial City I would seriously question their role-playing choices and not allow it.

    The problem with not allowing them temple holdings is rough. My limitation would be that they are casting their realm spells from source not temples. So having temples don't give them alot of benifit. Just like a warrior trying to control temples. They can by the rules, but not being able to cast realm spells makes the idea mostly foolish.

    -BB

  8. #18
    Senior Member cccpxepoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    Well first off any priest that is multi-classed as a wizard has access to temples and source. Rournil was just the example used. There is no difference between them and any other priest.
    I can't imagine the priests of Haelyn tolerating a wizard as their high-priest. But it is possible if you are rule-abuser.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    Second, priests of Erik are like any other priests also. They use temples in populated lands to gain access to their realm spells. They have no option to tap into source. Priest and Druids are different.
    I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    As a DM, if I saw a character play a druid and start building up their temple holdings in the Imperial City I would seriously question their role-playing choices and not allow it.
    To me everything is role-playing, and every thing is done at GM's discretion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbeau22 View Post
    The problem with not allowing them temple holdings is rough. My limitation would be that they are casting their realm spells from source not temples. So having temples don't give them alot of benifit. Just like a warrior trying to control temples. They can by the rules, but not being able to cast realm spells makes the idea mostly foolish.

    -BB
    I agree to that, but i can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in.
    In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.
    Bottom line i really liked your idea, and i will seriously consider it for my campaign i am just afraid it is to dis-balancing, but everything is OK for the stake of the good story.

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccpxepoj View Post
    so for priests of other gods is impossible, for priests of Ruornil it is possible with multi-classing, and it is free for the priests of Erik(aka the druids) i think it is a bit dis-balancing.
    The way i see it, if the druids hold the source holdings they must be limited from temple holdings, which is controlled by the priests(clerics) of Erik.
    First, balance isn't a good reason for doing much. In some ways its a necessarily evil, but in some ways its just an unnecessary restriction. Since you invoke it alone in the above post and mention it again (as subordinate to story) I'm not sure how seriously you take balance.

    From my point of view, balancing classes in some abstract power measure is not useful. In Rjurik the druid should be relatively more powerful and be the force that prevents arcanists from taking root. Outside Rjurik, the competition for both temples and sources will keep the druid from establishing a Rjurik-like presence.

    I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.
    This is using balance for the sake of balance with no sense in the setting, and so is the worst use of the idea of balance. Let's not forget where things stand as published and then reconsider this absurd argument. Currently the ES is full of zero level provinces with a handful of level 4's. If only temples count, the OG is mighty and the ES is a domain whose own ideas keep it very weak. This is better balanced?

    I can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in. In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.
    Unlike the existing realms where land, law, and source are held by one person? Or land, law, and guild? How is a temple, law, source domain any different?

  10. #20
    I am glad you like the idea. I certainly think it adds a new wrinkle in a somewhat unchanged system for years. I am going forward with it in my campaign and might make some adjustments to the Emerald Spire. If I can make it a workable system in Rjurik then I can balance it throughout all of Cerelia.

    I will certainly look at the idea of druids not having temples at all as a balance if it seems that temples and source are a bit too powerful. Since I haven't play tested any of this I don't know what to expect. With the Emerald Spire I would change up their holdings a bit, changing the temples to source and keeping a couple of low level temple holdings where needed. I would try to keep their overall level of holdings close to the same.

    -BB

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