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  1. #1

    Seperation of Heraldry between family and country

    I think that all of the heraldry on the wiki is fantastic, however, I would like to point out that a seperation needs to be made.

    Unless the rulers of the country are also of the line of the original family that were dubbed ruler of a given land, the heraldric symbol of the country, county, duchy, barony etc. will not be the same as the personal heraldry of the ruler.

    As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

    Heraldry is only passed to immediate heir unaltered, at the very least, and I believe that typically it was only 1st son. Additional sons modified it, at least slightly, to differentiate.

    Another example of this is Aerenwe and Swordraith.

    An example where this may be appropriate is Avan/Avanil and Boeruine, where the original family is still in control of the duchy/principalitiy from the day of it's founding.

  2. #2
    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Normally, sons used the same heraldry as their father, with minor alterations added to distinguish the knights from each other. The son who inherited the family land (if applicable) sometimes reverted to the 'true' heraldry upon assuming his fathers rank and position.

    Further, it was not unfamiliar for a knight to design his very own heraldry upon reaching knighthood, regardless of family shield and crest.
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  3. #3
    As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.
    Wouldn't they? Raenech is a bastard, but he somehow managed to get acknowledged as "Legitimate enough for us not to worry about." by a good hunk of Anuire. Doing something like taking the coat of arms of the old ruling family would be a powerful symbolic gesture in that respect. Similarly, I could see Moergan absolutely refusing to give up his family's coat of arms, seeing it as the penultimate symbol of his struggle to regain his birthright.

    Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.

    Pratically, it just makes more sense to apply coats of arms to the stuff we know exists; domains and their regents. It's easy enough to add or subtract a few details to seperate the Raenech and Moergan coats of arms, for example, while retaining the same basic "Oserode" outline that'll let it be recgonizeable outside of individual gaming groups.

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    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatSeanGuy View Post
    Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.
    You are right, but remember also that BR will most likely place as much, if not more, weight on a bloodline. In our world, blood was an intangible, somewhat abstract concept during the Middle Ages. In BR, it is as real as gravity, and thus, I think families and land will have separate coats of arms. Similarities between them, especially in cases of old dynasties, will of course be present.
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    I think usurpation is rare enough, considering the longevity of the various dynasties in their given realms, that a change in coat of arms would be acceptable. Though I agree, Raenech would try to usurp the legitimacy of the heraldry of Osoerde, as well.

    As for a visible connection to the land, beyond the regent I'm not sure how far that exists. I would tend to agree that there should be some connection there, but there is a general lack of rules assistance for the concept of a non-regent scion to have some connection to the land.

    It would be quite interesting if there were something. Perhaps some strong familial affinity or lingering effect of investiture remains with William Moergen and becomes manifested in various ways. If this mystical connection made it virtually impossible for Raenech, as invested/usurped landholder, to conduct an Espionage action against William due to a supernatural inability to locate or sense William, or even to locate and obtain the truth of his conspirators, it would go a long way to explaining William's continuing existence.

  6. #6
    See, that's an awesome idea, right there.

    Maybe make it a blood ability. "Realm Affinity" or something.

  7. #7

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorogood Roele View Post
    I think that all of the heraldry on the wiki is fantastic, however, I would like to point out that a seperation needs to be made.

    Unless the rulers of the country are also of the line of the original family that were dubbed ruler of a given land, the heraldric symbol of the country, county, duchy, barony etc. will not be the same as the personal heraldry of the ruler.

    As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

    Heraldry is only passed to immediate heir unaltered, at the very least, and I believe that typically it was only 1st son. Additional sons modified it, at least slightly, to differentiate.

    Another example of this is Aerenwe and Swordraith.

    An example where this may be appropriate is Avan/Avanil and Boeruine, where the original family is still in control of the duchy/principalitiy from the day of it's founding.
    Hi to all!
    Dear Roele, what you said is not too right. :confused:
    The Bourbon have their own CoA, know as Bourbon ancien. When they became King of France (and Navarra) their CoA become azur, three fleur de lis or, called France moderne (the old coa of france has many fleur de lis and is called France ancien) because it is the CoA of France!!!
    They even used the surname "de France" instead of their own Bourbon.

    ps: i have changed the Coa of Halskapa and Rjuvik. I apologize if i broken some copyright and so on. if you do not like the original CoA, you can link to the old file and the old (not original) CoA will reappare

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    We obviously had the original arms, but the original arms are irregular shapes and neither conducive to producing another two hundred like arms, nor to differencing or cadencing arms. Also, since many of the original arms were baroque in their complexity, we started of having to re-do at least some of the arms.

    So since it was undesirable to use all of the original arms because of their shape, and some of the arms because of their complexity, it was decided to go with all standardized arms and not to use the originals at all.

    What is the source of Rjuvik?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    We obviously had the original arms, but the original arms are irregular shapes and neither conducive to producing another two hundred like arms, nor to differencing or cadencing arms. Also, since many of the original arms were baroque in their complexity, we started of having to re-do at least some of the arms.
    thanx for your reply
    i do not think there are so much original coa since there were only few "secret". in Rjurik, if i am not wrong, there were only halskapa, dtjordvik and hogunmark, that is only three.
    for riuvik, i am sorry, the coa was from file a friend of mine sent me some time ago, it seems quite good but, after your reply, i find no "player secret of rjuvik" (with the cover reproducing the coa) or another offcial description of the arms.

    back to the matter: why only Stjordvik has the original arms? why do not let the other two realms have their coa as TSR did?

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    So since it was undesirable to use all of the original arms because of their shape, and some of the arms because of their complexity, it was decided to go with all standardized arms and not to use the originals at all.
    and Stjordvik??? (please do not change it)

  10. #10
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Stordvik was the first realm to get much beyond a few pages, and so its one of the oldest realms. When I tried to make Stjordvik's arms, I wasn't satisfied. My learning curve has improved, so I should try it again. Much later I did make Svarkannek, which contains two of the axes from Stjordvik, but when things get smaller, detail is less of a problem.

    In the interest of standardization, once I make a Stjordvik I'm happy with, I'll upload it.

    The image from the PS, can be used, such as an image of Varri's actual shield, or worked into a larger picture.

    For examples of what I'm thinking of, look at Ylvarrik_Castle#Affiliation where I've put the arms of Aarvald on shields of a a battle line.

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