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  1. #1

    Seperation of Heraldry between family and country

    I think that all of the heraldry on the wiki is fantastic, however, I would like to point out that a seperation needs to be made.

    Unless the rulers of the country are also of the line of the original family that were dubbed ruler of a given land, the heraldric symbol of the country, county, duchy, barony etc. will not be the same as the personal heraldry of the ruler.

    As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

    Heraldry is only passed to immediate heir unaltered, at the very least, and I believe that typically it was only 1st son. Additional sons modified it, at least slightly, to differentiate.

    Another example of this is Aerenwe and Swordraith.

    An example where this may be appropriate is Avan/Avanil and Boeruine, where the original family is still in control of the duchy/principalitiy from the day of it's founding.

  2. #2
    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Normally, sons used the same heraldry as their father, with minor alterations added to distinguish the knights from each other. The son who inherited the family land (if applicable) sometimes reverted to the 'true' heraldry upon assuming his fathers rank and position.

    Further, it was not unfamiliar for a knight to design his very own heraldry upon reaching knighthood, regardless of family shield and crest.
    -Harald

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  3. #3
    As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.
    Wouldn't they? Raenech is a bastard, but he somehow managed to get acknowledged as "Legitimate enough for us not to worry about." by a good hunk of Anuire. Doing something like taking the coat of arms of the old ruling family would be a powerful symbolic gesture in that respect. Similarly, I could see Moergan absolutely refusing to give up his family's coat of arms, seeing it as the penultimate symbol of his struggle to regain his birthright.

    Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.

    Pratically, it just makes more sense to apply coats of arms to the stuff we know exists; domains and their regents. It's easy enough to add or subtract a few details to seperate the Raenech and Moergan coats of arms, for example, while retaining the same basic "Oserode" outline that'll let it be recgonizeable outside of individual gaming groups.

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    Senior Member The Swordgaunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatSeanGuy View Post
    Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.
    You are right, but remember also that BR will most likely place as much, if not more, weight on a bloodline. In our world, blood was an intangible, somewhat abstract concept during the Middle Ages. In BR, it is as real as gravity, and thus, I think families and land will have separate coats of arms. Similarities between them, especially in cases of old dynasties, will of course be present.
    -Harald

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    I think usurpation is rare enough, considering the longevity of the various dynasties in their given realms, that a change in coat of arms would be acceptable. Though I agree, Raenech would try to usurp the legitimacy of the heraldry of Osoerde, as well.

    As for a visible connection to the land, beyond the regent I'm not sure how far that exists. I would tend to agree that there should be some connection there, but there is a general lack of rules assistance for the concept of a non-regent scion to have some connection to the land.

    It would be quite interesting if there were something. Perhaps some strong familial affinity or lingering effect of investiture remains with William Moergen and becomes manifested in various ways. If this mystical connection made it virtually impossible for Raenech, as invested/usurped landholder, to conduct an Espionage action against William due to a supernatural inability to locate or sense William, or even to locate and obtain the truth of his conspirators, it would go a long way to explaining William's continuing existence.

  6. #6
    See, that's an awesome idea, right there.

    Maybe make it a blood ability. "Realm Affinity" or something.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Another game I have played, HYW, has the idea of an ancestoral rebellion, where the person with ancestoral rights can come back home and stir an uprising against the current rulers. I think every scion with a tie to the land can do this, which is what is behind great captain events.

    Its why there are no Carieles in Cariele, and why Jaison's failure to deal with William is a problem for the usurper.

    Other explanations can be offered, but the idea of ancestoral rebellion is pretty capable. Plus, since the DM has control of who one's ancestors were and what connections they might have to a place, its hard to abuse. And what limits might be imposed can also suit the local history or personalities, or whatever.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Seperating the arms for people and places vastly increases the amount of arms uploaded and created. Plus it adds its own problems. What is the relationship of William Moergan's arms to the province of Moergan? Any answer adds complexity that will appeal mostly to heraldry enthusiasts at the cost of most others, while increasing the number of arms needed for the setting by as much as two.

    Even so, there are a few examples of personal arms differening from provincial arms. Romiene is not the same as the countess' arms, Hidaele doesn't match its count, which is Hidaele quartered with Dhariel. Daerin Isilviere will have the Isilviere arms differenced with a white border while Fairfield has her traditional arms.

    Quartering can solve some of the problems, but for the most part, I think symettry between provinces and counts and kingdoms and regents, is the better route, at least until most of Cerilia has arms.

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    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
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    RW rules of heraldry are a bit varied depending on period and region, what might actually be helpful is coming up with rules of heraldry for cerilia, a background on how the rules were accepted by all the tribes.

    Perhaps the roelle's held great contests but you couldn't compete unless your arms followed the rules, which might be enough for even the Vos to have decided to follow the rules.

    Now, when coming up with these rules, it can be explained that the arms belong to the rightful heir in a bloodline sense, not in a lineage sense. Which would go a long way toward explaining why rulers use arms that you wouldn't necessarily use. Perhaps the rightful heir has a device to mark them as the heir, while the rest of their family would not. The ruler is the only one allowed to have anything shown outside the shield plane (Crest, Helmet, Suporters, Mantle) on their arms or maybe just not allowed to show a Helm or crest.

    Just a thought, I can already see some issues, but perhaps just thinking of the rules would make the rest more clear.

    Some thoughts.
    *The shield shape would designate tribe or region (Anuirean, Khinasi, Vos, Brecht, etc.)
    *The helm shape could denote rank, region, herald or artists preference or perhaps only be allowed to be used by landed regents.
    *The Crest, Wreath and mantle would be personal to the Scion, so this might change from ruler to ruler of the domain, although direct decendants would probably use the same family crest. Alternatively, this could represent the duchy, county, kingdom, and be the one part that represent the realm you rule.
    *The shield elements would be where most of the required devices would be. This is where the rules would really come into place. I would limit it to 5 devices. A quartering plus a center.

    There definetely should be some uniquely cerilian rules in the creation of a crest, but using RW rules as a basis would be good.

    I'm sure the rules could be tweaked in such a way that they would work for the current situation, and having rules would give a basis for creating future arms "realistically".
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    While I support there being semi-formalised rules for Cerilian heraldry, as has been pointed out, different RL communities/nations had slightly different heraldry. IIRC even to this England and Scotland have different chief heralds and different registers of heraldry (and possibly different rules).

    However, while bloodlines are common throughout all of Cerilia and the Anuirean Empire might have been what started the heraldry, I would still allow some differentiation between regions. For instance, different groups are important in the regions. For Rjurik, it is the clan. For Brecht, it is the guild/company. For Vos, it is the fighting unit. For Khinasi, it is the family/church of Avani. For Anuirean, it is the nobility. I would like this to be worked into any heraldic "rules".

    Perhaps these groups define whose name the arms are "registered" in and who controls such registration, even if they are passed down along bloodlines. For instance, in Brechtur the heraldry may be controlled by officers from a council of guilds for all the major cities/provinces. They decide what guilds can bear what trade insignia/arms so as to make sure there is no commercial confusion. The arms are bestowed upon the regent/boss of the guild as it is he/she who decides who can represent the guild.

    Sorontar

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