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Thread: Tuornen- a Duchy or Not?
03-13-2008, 02:22 PM #1
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- Jul 2007
Tuornen- a Duchy or Not?
03-13-2008, 05:00 PM #2
- Join Date
- Feb 2003
There is no high authority on titles in Anuire for anyone to appeal
to. The Avans have claimed the title of "Prince", Boeruine goes by
"Archduke", and there`s Queen out on the southeastern coast of Anuire,
I`m forgetting the name of the country right now (Aerenwe?). None of
those were their original titles in the empire.
The lord of Tuornen can call himself a Duke if he likes, and anyone
who expects to treat with him will use it. I imagine the Duke of
Alamie doesn`t like to refer to Tuornen`s lord as a Duke, but I doubt
the lord of Tuornen cares very much.
As to the size of Alamie originally, I believe some of the provinces
in southern Tuornen used to be part of Avanil, and were absorbed by
Alamie sometime after the end of empire, and before Tuornen split off.
The only evidence for this is (I believe) the map in the front of the
Iron Throne novel, since that`s the only map we have of the "original"
empire. Anything in the Iron Throne is dubiously canon, since in some
cases it outright contradicts stuff published in the boxed set. But
it may provide a useful answer in this case.
Of course, that raises new questions, such as, "Why isn`t the present
Prince of Avanil interested in his historical claims to those
provinces?" Maybe it`s been so long that no one cares, maybe he
expects Tuornen would declare for Boeruine if he tried, who knows.
Or maybe Alamie just was that big, since those were the natural
borders of the duchy- mountains, major rivers, and so on. Borders in
real life are much more likely to be caused by natural features such
as this than by any sense of "balance".
03-13-2008, 05:37 PM #3
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- Jan 2004
Titles in Anuire appear to follow family lines much more consistently than anything else. I am not terribly familiar with the whole Alamie/Tuornen split, but I believe the Tuor side has a bastard involved in its origin. If so, they may claim the title of Duke, but it likely wouldn't be recognized by many of their peers and would be sneered at even if used politely when treating with them.
If the Tuor line is not a bastard line, then there may be a legitimate claim, but that claim must be reconciled with Alamie's. The ducal lines bear extra significance in Anuire because there were originally 12 duchies that each have a seat on the highest council down from the Emperor, and thus the highest remaining council in Anuire, the primary one remaining that seems to hold the Empire together. Each of those seats can have only one claimant, and they are the only body with the power to approve a new Emperor (a majority of ducal votes plus the Imperial Chamberlain's approval being necessary; otherwise, an Emperor must physically conquer everyone and prove his claim with more force than might otherwise be necessary).
Because these original ducal seats follow family lines and not the lands that one holds, lineage remains very important, and there can be only one vote assigned to each old Imperial duchy. Note that the Cariele family of Coeranys remains a ducal line because of lineage, despite having lost their original lands. The Elin line was replaced by ibn Daouta and is presumably extinct. The Ghieste and Bhalaene lines have also either died out or lost their lands (it seems the evidence would suggest that a ducal family that has no regency at all cannot take a place on the ducal council, though if they regained power this might be possible). Ghoere is a barony because its rulers have had no connection with the ancient Imperial families of Ghieste and Bhalaene. It may be given a single seat on the ducal council--but only by general recognition of the rest of the duchies, and this because it sits in the place of two duchies and has sufficient power to back its claim for a single vote; but claiming to be a duke seems a step too far even for Ghoere, which is why it does not.
Aerenwe seceded from the Empire and is thus just a kingdom, having no titular ties to the Empire and abdicating its seat on the ducal council. Osoerde may have a succession crisis and its claim to the ducal council might be contestable right now by anyone who wishes to do so. Diemed agreed in treaty to the humiliating demotion to baron, but the family remains intact and thus it sits on the council. The Brosen line was passed by lineage to the Mierelen, presumably by rules allowing matrilineal succession of the duchy.
As for the size of Tuornen, I agree with Dan that Alamie likely took some land from Avanil during the many wars that may have weakened Avanil and Boeruine. Taeghas may have actually also taken land from Boeruine, as well as from the duchy of Brosengae, as alliances shifted and conflicts created opportunities throughout the years. Alamie's fall in power despite its size could merely have been a result of poor leadership, the difficulties of maintaining such a large realm especially if they tried to centralize and not delegate all the power, aggression from Rhuobhe, the Five Peaks, Avanil, Thurazor, Boeruine, Cariele, Mhoried, Ghoere, and Endier (too many neighbors nipping away can keep the realm weak, making it all it can do just to hold onto its provinces).
In their original expanses, Boeruine, Avanil, Brosengae, Cariele/Coeranys, Elinie, and Osoerde may well have been larger. Aerenwe we know was--it at least lost Bellam to Roesone, I believe. Diemed certainly was quite large, losing Roesone, Ilien, Medoere, Endier, and the Spiderfell, all to reasons probably similar to Alamie's--too large a realm, too many neighbors, and weak cycles of rulership.
03-13-2008, 06:11 PM #4
The basis of calling Tuornen a Duchy stems from the fact that the Dukes of Tuornen claim to be the descendants of the Duke of Alamie, a hundred years Prior. So they make a familial claim to the Title. The only Duchy I know of that explicitly does not recognize this claim is of course Alamie, who still claim the lands of Tuornen and typically refer to them as the rebellious provinces to the west.
The line in Tuornen is the bastard line so this may affect the way other states view their claim to the title. However Tuornen's location between Avanil and Boeruine means there is alot of posturing politically so perhaps there is an arguement to be made for recognizing their title. Also never underestimate the dislike of the Alam's, Carilon is only the latest in a long line of very underhanded and dastardly rulers. So there maybe recognition as part of a blowback towards that family.
As to the size of Alamie of old. There are parts of the Box set which list the Alams as, at one time, being among the most powerful of the duchies, rivaling Avanil and Boeruine. And I honestly forget where I once read it but in one source book I am sure Alamie was refered to as an Arch-duchy at one point, but I could be misremembering it.
The way I have interpreted Alamie's spread think of it as centered around Lofton/Haes, and the authority radiating out from there by two or three provinces. This makes sense especially given there are not many other old Duchal capitals near by that are not limited by natural boundaries.
Also one can assume part of southern Alamie could have been seized in the war of bridges. Also there was a strong relationship between the Alams and the Emperors and many times they were granted lands and other favors, I know there was some business with Cariele line and the granting of land.
03-13-2008, 09:23 PM #5
My simplistic view is that the original Alamie was one of the original arch-duchies as was Avanil and others. When Dalton (the bastard son) caused the split then the arch-duchy was no more. The current arch-duke of Alamie reduced his title to Duke as to reflect the loss and declared he would take his orginial title once the land was reunited. Dalton followed suit and took Duke for himself. He felt the title belonged to him all along.
The rulers of Alamie afterwards kept using the new title because of the slight it would have on the family for not reuniting the land but re-taking the old title. Alamie has lost a lot of respect throughout Anuire and re-taking the old title would even further reduce their prestige.
As for the size of Alamie orginially I don't think anything was taken from Avanil or there would be mention of it. Alamie was considered one of the more powerful original duchies below Avanil, Boureine but perhaps equal to anyone else ... why the fall of the arch-duchy is even more profound. I also feel that the population of Alamie is far lower than the countries that have boarders on the sea. Large amounts of Alamie are just farm land.
As for other nations scoffing at a bastard child taking the name of Duke .... I feel it gets more respect from their neighbors because of the fine leadership Tournen has had over the years in stark contrast to the horrible leadership Alamie as produced. Although purest would still want an Alam ruling the original arch-duchy ... most think that the split better balances Anuire and keeps weak rulers out of a position of power.
03-14-2008, 01:46 PM #6
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- Jan 2002
In their original expanses, Boeruine, Avanil, Brosengae, Cariele/Coeranys, Elinie, and Osoerde may well have been larger. Aerenwe we know was--it at least lost Bellam to Roesone, I believe. Diemed certainly was quite large, losing Roesone, Ilien, Medoere, Endier, and the Spiderfell, all to reasons probably similar to Alamie`s--too large a realm, too many neighbors, and weak cycles of rulership.
If we follow "The Spider?s Test" then Diemed never held the Spiderfell or Endier which originally was part of the Spiderfell- only the *claim* to the area from the Emperor. And it did not lose the whole of Roesone, only Caercas is specifically mentioned to have been lost to Roesone. The eastern line of Roesones provinces could well be like Bellam former Aerenwean provinces.
Last edited by Thelandrin; 05-08-2008 at 05:30 PM.
03-23-2008, 06:01 PM #7
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- Aug 2006
We also have to remember that not every designer worked on the same area. What seemed like such a large realm that PCs shouldn't be able to pick it up to one designer could be average sized to another: See the problem of the huge huge huge realms in northern Rjurik and Brechtur as an example.
Personally? For all the fuss the Anurieans make about title, I have it as another excuse to bicker and politick against eachother. Expecting the Anuriean Empire during its height to abide by the standards of "A baron has X, a count has X, a duke has X." isn't something I'd do, considering that many of the Empire's great victories were compromises, rather than conquests. Five hundred years after the Roeles fell, 'Count' or 'Baron' or 'Duke' is just another word for 'King' unless some damn filthy outsider tries telling them different.
Specificly in the case of Tuoren, remember that "Tuor pride" is such a big deal that it's mentioned under the "Special considerations." part of the entry. Y'know, where they usually put game mechanics stuff. If their old country was a duchy, would the Tuors settle for being anything less than a ducky themselves?
03-24-2008, 07:03 PM #8
03-24-2008, 11:45 PM #9
I would not classify Tuornen as a actual Anuirean duchy.
Avanil and Boeruine however are both seeking Tuornen's support so they would most likely humour the Flaertes presumption to their assumed title. Given that they probably get away with calling themselves Dukes and Duchesses regardless of what many may think behind their backs.
03-25-2008, 01:41 AM #10
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