Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 40

Thread: Blooded Undead?

  1. #11
    Senior Member ploesch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    182
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    First off, when the player died, he should have lost his bloodline as the rules state. Every version is pretty clear on the fact that the link between the land and the Scion is broken and even if resurected the charcter is no longer a scion.

    Between the Magian and even objects being able to absorb some of the released essense, I would most definetely allow an intelligent undead to become Scions.

    However, as a GM I would feel obligated to make the characters undeath as a scion hell. If the people found out, they would plot and unrest would become more common. Their neighbors would plot against the undead scion no matter how nice he seemed. He would have to take extreme measures to try to escape detection, but as a scion, especially if they have a domain, it would be nearly impossible for no one to notice the change. Speaking of changes, hiding his new "life style" would likely require changing old habits. Do they have a lover? Even a queen might go to the nearest priest upon suspicion of their King being undead. Remember, in Cerilia undead are part of the shadow world. So anyone playing undead would automatically be assumed to be evil even if they weren't.

    If it became common knowledge, elves would leave their homes to destroy the scions domain. The abomination might be enough for Humans and elves to stand together to destroy them if that's what it took.

    So yeah, while I would allow it, I don't think the players undeath would be very long lived.

    I also agree that the player would corrupt any bloodline they inherited into that of Azrai.
    When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
    George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire

  2. #12
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 04:30 PM 2/21/2008, irdeggman wrote:

    >See Spectral Scion for an example of an BR specific non-unique
    >undead that can gain a bloodline (specifically a scion that was
    >killed previously).

    A Spectral Scion does not gain or retain a bloodline after death. At
    least, there is not bloodline listed in the stats for the monster,
    despite a rather detailed list of things that the creature does
    retain. A Spectral Scion drains the bloodline from blooded
    characters due to its "hunger" for their own missing bloodline, and
    bloodline can be returned to the victim, but the Spectral Scion
    itself doesn`t actually manifest any sort of bloodline.

    If you meant the Spectral Awnshegh from Bloodspawn, however, you
    might be on to something. Those characters do retain some sort of
    bloodline after death and usurpation. However, as they "exist at the
    will (and the whim) of the Cold Rider" there`s something else going
    on there. The Cold Rider is a kind of god, maybe even the remnant of
    Azrai himself, so there`s a whole exceptional loophole in that
    process that is not unlike the Lost.

    Gary

  3. #13
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 05:43 PM 2/21/2008, ploesch wrote:

    >First off, when the player died, he should have lost his bloodline
    >as the rules state. Every version is pretty clear on the fact that
    >the link between the land and the Scion is broken and even if
    >resurected the charcter is no longer a scion.

    That was my impression too, but a more careful reading of the text
    indicates that what`s being talked about there is the link between a
    regent and his domain, not a scion and his bloodline. Regency is
    lost upon death, but not bloodline, so a scion who was raised from
    the dead by a spell would retain his bloodline.

    I suppose one could interpret the break between the scion and "the
    land" as a loss of bloodline... but it seems pretty clear that that
    was not the original intent.

    Gary

  4. #14
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ploesch View Post
    First off, when the player died, he should have lost his bloodline as the rules state. Every version is pretty clear on the fact that the link between the land and the Scion is broken and even if resurected the charcter is no longer a scion.
    Gary is correct (see the quote fro the Book of Priestcraft I provided earlier).

    A scion who dies loses his tie to his holdings but not his bloodline (unless slain with a bloodlsilver weapon or he had done a ceremony of Investiture to transfer his bloodline ahead of time).

    In the OP's case the PC had done a transfer of bloodline so he is now an unblooded free-willed undead.

    Where (and how) he goes from there is what he wants to know.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    At 04:30 PM 2/21/2008, irdeggman wrote:

    >See Spectral Scion for an example of an BR specific non-unique
    >undead that can gain a bloodline (specifically a scion that was
    >killed previously).

    A Spectral Scion does not gain or retain a bloodline after death. At
    least, there is not bloodline listed in the stats for the monster,
    despite a rather detailed list of things that the creature does
    retain. A Spectral Scion drains the bloodline from blooded
    characters due to its "hunger" for their own missing bloodline, and
    bloodline can be returned to the victim, but the Spectral Scion
    itself doesn`t actually manifest any sort of bloodline.

    My bad, you are correct here. The SS "steals" blood points but doesn't seem to gain anything by doing so.

    The weapon Blood Hungry (from the adventure of the same name) likewise steals bloodline points but it only gains Int and magical enhancements but not a bloodline.
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
    Junior Member Capricia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    24
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post


    That was my impression too, but a more careful reading of the text
    indicates that what`s being talked about there is the link between a
    regent and his domain, not a scion and his bloodline. Regency is
    lost upon death, but not bloodline, so a scion who was raised from
    the dead by a spell would retain his bloodline.

    I suppose one could interpret the break between the scion and "the
    land" as a loss of bloodline... but it seems pretty clear that that
    was not the original intent.

    Gary
    I found this in the BRCS

    "However, because the scions divine essence is contained in his blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a violent manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded character dies non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn't result in the spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their bloodline passes with them, either to their heir or to into the land itself if they had not designated a heir. However, if a scion's blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power."

    It makes it pretty clear that the bloodline goes when the scion dies. Either it leaves for an heir, back to the land, or to their killer in the case of usurpation or bloodtheft.

    And once undead, how do you put a "divine spark" into a reanimated shell?

  7. #17
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Posts
    3,945
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Capricia View Post
    I found this in the BRCS

    "However, because the scions divine essence is contained in his blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a violent manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded character dies non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn't result in the spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their bloodline passes with them, either to their heir or to into the land itself if they had not designated a heir. However, if a scion's blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power."

    It makes it pretty clear that the bloodline goes when the scion dies. Either it leaves for an heir, back to the land, or to their killer in the case of usurpation or bloodtheft.

    And once undead, how do you put a "divine spark" into a reanimated shell?

    Gary was referring to the 2nd ed rules, again which I provided the quote from earlier. (See Book of Priestcraft).

    I also referenced the BRCS rules that pertain.

    I also pointed out that there was a difference depending on what rule set was being used. The one commonality to both is that the regent's tie to his holdings is gone.

    The BRCS has the scion losing his bloodline once dead (see the quote from Chapter 3 under resurrection)

    I also pointed out that in Chapter 2 it talks about objects getting bloodlines (similar words existed in the 2nd ed rules). In general an undead is considered "an object" so it would technically be possible to have an undead receive a bloodline, but it is supposed to be rare.

    So since a divine spark can be placed into an object. . . . .
    Duane Eggert

  8. #18
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 12:39 PM 2/22/2008, Capricia wrote:

    >I found this in the BRCS
    >
    >"However, because the scions divine essence is contained in his
    >blood, this usurpation can only occur if a scion dies in a violent
    >manner and his blood is literally spilt. If a blooded character dies
    >non-violently, by poison, or a spell that doesn`t result in the
    >spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their bloodline passes
    >with them, either to their heir or to into the land itself if they
    >had not designated a heir. However, if a scion`s blood is spilt as a
    >result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence
    >of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power."
    >
    >It makes it pretty clear that the bloodline goes when the scion
    >dies. Either it leaves for an heir, back to the land, or to their
    >killer in the case of usurpation or bloodtheft.

    As Irdeggman pointed out, I think this is a misreading of the
    original rules, so the folks who put together the current document
    erred in this interpretation. I had made the same assumption,
    though, because the text in the Rulebook, p31 also makes it sound as
    if bloodline goes too: "If a blooded character dies a natural death
    or perishes at the hand of a commoner, his bloodline is unaffected,
    and all his bloodline characteristics die with him...."

    There was a pretty consistent problem with the use of terms in the
    original 2e document, so "bloodline is unaffected" and "all his
    bloodline characteristics die" would seem to be a contradiction, but
    what the latter term appears to mean is that no bloodline is
    transferred to the killer given the context of the other quotes in
    the rest of that section. The main issues are the scion`s bloodline,
    how much (if any) bloodline is transferred to a killer, a regent`s
    accumulated RP, and the disposition of a regent`s domain after his
    death. The circumstances under which a scion/regent can die as
    presented in the original bloodtheft rules are

    1. A scion killed by a commoner or dying a "natural" death.
    2. A regent killed by a commoner or dying a "natural" death.
    3. A scion killed by another scion.
    4. A regent killed by another scion.
    5. A "last of his line" regent killed by a scion.
    6. A scion killed by a scion wielding a tighmaevril weapon.
    7. A regent killed by a scion wielding a tighmaevril weapon.

    The results of those deaths are:

    1. Nothing much other than a stained shirt and funeral expenses.
    2. Domain and RP transferred to an heir.
    3. Slayer gains 1 or 2 bloodline score points.
    4. Slayer gains 1 or 2 bloodline score points, domain is transferred
    to an heir, RP are lost.
    5. Slayer gains 1/5 of victim`s bloodline score points and his
    RP. Domain becomes "uncontrolled."
    6. Slayer gains 1/2 of victim`s bloodline score points.
    7. Slayer gains 1/2 of victim`s bloodline score points, RP are lost
    and domain becomes uncontrolled.

    However, where I think the source of confusion is that things get
    even more convoluted when it comes to the rules regarding the
    designation of an heir, because once an heir is invested a victim`s
    bloodline score is transferred to that character upon his
    death. Should such a scion or regent be killed and raised from the
    dead he`d have no bloodline since that power has gone to the
    heir. That would appear to be what was meant by the text that says
    that the scion`s "bloodline is unaffected" should he die under
    circumstances #1 and #2. That is, all the other methods of
    bloodtheft take bloodline score points from the scion/regent and
    interfere with the inheritance process by reducing the amount of the
    inheritance. The heir of a scion who was killed under circumstance
    #3 would inherit a bloodline that was 1 or 2 points lower than the
    original since those points were drained off by the
    killer. Similarly, a scion who died under circumstance #6 would only
    pass along half his bloodline to his heir.

    Conversely, a scion who died under any of those circumstances without
    an heir would lose a like amount from his bloodline score. That is,
    a regent killed under circumstance #2 who had no heir could be raised
    from the dead with this bloodline intact, while one who was the "last
    of his line" (#5) would lose 1/5 of his bloodline when raised.

    >And once undead, how do you put a "divine spark" into a reanimated shell?

    In the absence of some exceptional mode of reanimation, I don`t think
    you can. I think there must be something about the nature of
    bloodline that prevents it from taking hold in any of the standard
    D&D undead. Maybe it has to do with the nature of worship and
    divinity. After all, I don`t think a regent would derive a whole
    heck of a lot of regency from the adoration of a zombie
    population.... Maybe it has to do with the nature of immortality
    (either undead or elven) being the kind of thing that turns a
    character away from the ability and inclination to worship gods in
    the way that other mortal characters can. (Though that one`s a bit
    of an interpretation too....) Maybe it has something to do with the
    interaction between bloodline, the world of light and cosmic
    interference from the Shadow World. There are any number of
    justifications for such an interpretation.

    Just as important, though, is that I think there are several game
    mechanical reasons to avoid the situation. So I don`t think it
    should be used in BR as a standard concept, and would advise against
    it in a homebrew unless someone wanted to take their game in a
    direction that might diverge strongly from the ideas expressed in the
    original materials.

    OK, so that said, if one wanted to allow it, I could see some sort of
    exception for a few intelligent undead, particularly vampires, whose
    feeding habits have a nice symmetry with the idea of bloodline and
    some of the exceptional modes of bloodline transfer described in the
    original materials. Other undead feed on humans in various ways--I
    wrote up a ghoulish awnshegh once whose background had to do with
    having been "executed" (he could arguably have been only near death
    rather than actually dead) and then thrown on a pile of corpses where
    his transformation took hold and he began to feed upon the
    dead. That character is one of the exceptions rather than the rule
    since he was already a scion, and therefore his transformation was
    into a ghoul-like awnshegh, not an actual ghoul, but the basic
    premise having to do with devouring the dead makes a certain sense
    for ghouls and ghasts.

    It should be noted, however, that even The Vampire didn`t seem to
    come about becoming blooded in this way....

    Personally, I haven`t quite figured out what happens with a lich when
    he becomes undead. Liches are specifically mentioned in the back of
    the rulebook (but so are gnomes...) but if one loses bloodline upon
    death/undeath then how would a lich remain able to cast true
    magic? Surely that ability is one that is necessary for such a
    character, and part of what makes one a lich in the first
    place. Lich-magicians just don`t seem apt. Of course, given the
    "low-level" and "low-magic" nature of the setting, that particular
    issue is something of a rarity, but it`s worth mentioning.

    Gary

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Springfield Mo
    Posts
    3,562
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    If one loses bloodline upon death/undeath then how would a lich remain able to cast true magic? Surely that ability is one that is necessary for such a
    character, and part of what makes one a lich in the first place.
    Perhaps the wizard seeks a patron from the Shadow World who helps them craft the lich’s phylactery, which is then concealed in the SW. At this time the two work to corrupt the wizards sources with awnmebhaighl, which the lich will require to continue controlling the sources. The dark power forges a ley line to the lich's holdings in one or two places, which acts as a portal for the dark power to seek to corrupt more life from the daylight world. As the dark power goes about with his desired goal of corruption, strange goings on occur and undead appear with frequency. To the learned, this heralds the arrival of a lich. So while the wizard is now a lich, those most interested in their destruction are alerted to their corruption and the ally who helped (and was neccesary for the process) acts as a kind of beacon corrupting and creating mayhem.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    2,165
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0
    At 12:37 AM 2/23/2008, kgauck wrote:

    >Perhaps the wizard seeks a patron from the Shadow World who helps
    >them craft the lich`s phylactery, which is then concealed in the SW.
    >At this time the two work to corrupt the wizards sources with
    >awnmebhaighl, which the lich will require to continue controlling
    >the sources. The dark power forges a ley line to the lich`s holdings
    >in one or two places, which acts as a portal for the dark power to
    >seek to corrupt more life from the daylight world. As the dark power
    >goes about with his desired goal of corruption, strange goings on
    >occur and undead appear with frequency. To the learned, this heralds
    >the arrival of a lich. So while the wizard is now a lich, those most
    >interested in their destruction are alerted to their corruption and
    >the ally who helped (and was neccesary for the process) acts as a
    >kind of beacon corrupting and creating mayhem.

    I`m liking the BR-specific aspects of this rationale quite a bit. It
    seems to compare in some ways to the Magian`s and the Raven`s
    backgrounds... and it stands on its own. It`d be interesting if a BR
    lich was tied to a particular province because that`s where the
    source manifestation of his SW ley line.... Perhaps that ley line is
    through a gate into the SW from which the lich can draw
    allies.... As a domain level random event, the lich could try to
    create a ley line into a regent`s province so it could travel there
    and wreak havoc. (A Great Captain meets the Magical Event.) There`s
    about seventy-five domain level and adventure level hooks in there....

    I think the big picture of this whole thing, though, is that such a
    character should have some sort of exceptional rationale to explain
    his presence in the BR setting. Aside from the value of creating
    unique and interesting characters/adventures, just having a standard,
    D&D lich in the setting without some sort of rationale could wind up
    being problematic.

    For lack of a better term, I`m going to call this Robocop
    Syndrome. It`s all well and good to create a character for a
    one-shot adventure (or movie) but once things progress beyond that
    one-shot adventure (or movie) we need some sort of way to prevent
    things from getting out of control. In the not-so-good sequels to
    the Robocop movies they had to come up with a reason why every police
    officer who dies on duty in Old Detroit didn`t get turned into
    another mecha-cyborg. The city could have had a dozen Robocopies if
    the sequel was set just a few months later. They justified the one
    by saying every other time they tried it the subject went crazy and
    shutdown or suicided, so there was something special going on in our
    title character`s psyche to keep him alive and patrolling when other
    cop brains couldn`t stand the transition.

    So to avoid the undead equivalent of Robocop Syndrome, one should ask
    why aren`t there dozens of undead scions running around if it`s
    possible at all. There are a lot of interesting ways to do that, and
    I think it`s a fairly simple way of maintaining, even working with,
    the existing BR dynamics in a way that adds to the gaming experience.

    Gary

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Undead Legion
    By ryancaveney in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 05-20-2007, 04:58 PM
  2. Undead Legion
    By Mantyluoto in forum BRCS 3.0/3.5 Edition
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-06-2006, 06:17 PM
  3. Blooded characters in Anuire
    By Robbie in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 09-12-2005, 12:42 PM
  4. Blooded Level Adjustment
    By Magian in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 07-08-2004, 11:21 PM
  5. Tragic Undead
    By destowe in forum The Royal Library
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-24-2003, 03:25 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
BIRTHRIGHT, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, the BIRTHRIGHT logo, and the D&D logo are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by permission. ©2002-2010 Wizards of the Coast, Inc.