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Thread: Blooded Undead?
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02-28-2008, 07:24 PM #31
irdeggman points out in post #7 that according to BRCS rules even objects can (rarely) absorb a portion of the divine essence of a violently slain Scion.
Which is what I was reffering to.
So according to 2E rules a scion retains their bloodline if ressurected. Which means that Divine essense or spark doesn't die with the scion.
According to BRCS objects can gain bloodlines.
So it stands to reason that a Scion that dies with their bloodline intact could be raised as an intelligent undead with access to their bloodline abilities. An arguent could be made in this case for a corruption of that blood since the body would be animated by forces from the shadow world. The people would certainly assume the scion to be corrupted, but as GM's we know not everything in the SW is corrupt, so this should be left up to individual GM's for story advancement.
It also stands to reason that an intelligent undead could gain a bloodline if they tried to, and could be the target of an investiture.
Therefore, IMO, the lack of (non awnshegh) undead Regents is more Role Playing limitation than a rules barrier. They would be considered an abomination and destroyed by the good people of Cerilia.
For unintelligent undead, I'd say that without the intelligence to use their blood abilities and since their blood cannot be spillt they may still contain some divine spark in the body, but it is not reachable except maybe with tighmaevril (sp?) weapons.
That, or perhaps the mechanics need to be reconsidered for 4E. Personally I think there are enough RP obstacles that having a bunch of undead regents running around would never happen.When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire
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02-28-2008, 08:35 PM #32
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02-29-2008, 12:02 AM #33
Agreed. That doesn't mean that the now intelligent undead scion is evil though. Just that the vast majority of the people that realize the Scions situation will assume so.
Which is why I think it's an excellent plot and story line. The sypathetic undead Scion must find a way to restore true life to their undead husk. Raise dead would only destroy them, perhaps a full ressurection would work, but you might as well be looking for a wish. The wish might be easier to come by since any priest powerful enough to ressurect the scion would likely destroy them before they could ever explain their situation.When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire
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02-29-2008, 10:19 AM #34
At 11:24 AM 2/28/2008, ploesch wrote:
>According to BRCS objects can gain bloodlines.
>
>So it stands to reason that a Scion that dies with their bloodline
>intact could be raised as an intelligent undead with access to their
>bloodline abilities. An arguent could be made in this case for a
>corruption of that blood since the body would be animated by forces
>from the shadow world. The people would certainly assume the scion
>to be corrupted, but as GM`s we know not everything in the SW is
>corrupt, so this should be left up to individual GM`s for story advancement.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but... this would seem to be
the kind of thing that wasn`t really fully thought through. The BRCS
is really silent on the elaborations of this concept, and that
particular one is problematic.
>Personally I think there are enough RP obstacles that having a bunch
>of undead regents running around would never happen.
Never? The proliferation of undead is a theme in a lot of settings
and fantasy literature in which the power of the gods isn`t also
assumed to be part of the deal. Why wouldn`t be at least as many
undead regents as there are awnsheghlien regents if it`s possible for
them to have a bloodline?
We have awnsheghlien who`ve sprung up from canines, boars, and
apparently some sort of squid. Yet there are none that come from
undead, even though some awnsheghlien have changed into totemic forms
that mimic undead types.... Every race of the continent, even some
monsters and very rare kinds of creatures have a bloodline... but no
undead. That seems to bespeak the situation more directly than
something intimated but not said explicitly in the BRCS update.
Personally, I`m never all that happy with a strictly role-playing
solution to a problem that is set up by game mechanics or setting
background. Role-playing has a role, but as the sole way out of
poorly conceived rules it`s weak. If a GM creates rules that have a
logical outcome then it strikes me as a wank to pull an end run
around that process by "role-playing" it away. It`s like having a
character wake up to find "it was all a dream." Weak.
Gary
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03-04-2008, 07:26 PM #35
IMO, the game was originally written with the idea that when you died you lost your bloodline. It was never particularly clear in the original material, but up until I started reading this thread I always played that way. With that in mind, none of the scions in the original material are actually undead. It could also simply be an oversight.
However, in the intervening years, and even some of the material written for the original game, this concept changed, but no one had a reason to go back and recreate the regents.
So I really don't think we can assume by implication that it is impossible for an undead creature to become a scion based on there not being any undead Regents in the core books.
That would be like assuming that tasers don't exist because a police manual from 1940 doesn't mention them.
The BRCS rules, and even the original rules do not exclude the possibility, so if a GM wishes to introduce that aspect to their game there really isn't any argument against it.
The rarity could be explained in many ways. First off, having a bloodline at all is what 1% of the population. The simple fact that unintelligent undead (the most common form) couldn't take advantage of their blood abilities, and that most scions that would have a chance to become intelligent undead probably lost their bloodlines in a violent death are enough reason to assume that an intelligent undead with a blood line would be nearly non-existant. Add to that the fear of the shadow world that Cerilians harbor as well as the hatred for everything unnatural the elves have, it's not suprising that intelligent undead, even if they managed to keep/gain a bloodline, wouldn't be rushing out to become a landed regent. They would be trying to keep their condition a secret.
I do agree with others that there are allot of game balance implications in allowing Undead scions. This is one of those things that while the rules don't say you can't, it's something that should be carefully considered.
Finally, if you don't want them to exist in your game, simply say that the forces animating the body destroy the divine spark that allows a character to become a scion. That isn't in the rules, but it will suffice to prevent undead regents.When you play the game of thrones you win or you die.
George R. R. Martin - A song of Ice and Fire
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03-04-2008, 08:32 PM #36
I'm not sure where I read it, but given bloodtheft can result in at most half the bloodline being stolen the suggestion was that half the bloodline remained in the dead body - so if resurrected the body might have half its original bloodline. That sounds like the old 2e rules though.
I'd probably rule undead out in a game I played, or rule that instead of rising as a true undead the scion rises as an awnshegh of similar vein but don't really see anything in the rules specifically banning undead scions.
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03-04-2008, 10:05 PM #37
I don't think its a good idea to be too firm either way. The game is supposed to make things possible without mandating that this or that option is required. The Gorgon has a stat block so that people can fight him, but you obviously don't have to make a combat with the Gorgon necessary.
Personally, I'm not keen on undead scions on this side of the evenascence, but if someone wants to take their game in that direction its prudent to provide some explanation for how to go about that.
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03-05-2008, 04:01 PM #38
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03-05-2008, 04:38 PM #39
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Why be so snippy?
No reason for it, IMO.
The OP asked if it was possible.
People answered, basically that the 2nd ed 3.5 rules left it "open".
Then people chimed in how they would or would not do it (and why). Absolutely nothing wrong with that, in fact that is one of the core values of this forum - free exchange of ideas.Duane Eggert
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03-05-2008, 10:43 PM #40
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Another option would be to take a page from Eberron. In that setting there's a form of positive-energy-based necromancy practiced by one of the elven races.
I forget what the practice is called or what they refer to the end result as, but basically it's a way for the race to take the whole 'honored elder' concept into extremes, with a ruling body of elves in dead bodies continuously flooded with so much positive energy that they can continue to exist as intelligent self-willed (insert undead-but-not-undead name here)
With a quirk of the Invulnerability ability which I think someone touched on earlier, the same could be accomplished in Birthright. Say the body is so crucially damaged or even completely eradicated it can no longer support natural life (or is going to take eons for the Invulnerability trait to regenerate). A DM could rule that the blood ability itself could keep the body together and the soul tied to it since that character's specific death conditions haven't been met, resulting in a fully self-aware intelligent and Blooded being in a body that doesn't need to breathe or eat and maybe drops little rotting bits every now and then, depending on how the player and DM want to flavor things. No shadow world involved, the character's own strength of will and divine bloodline keep him going.
Could even tie it in with the other ideas mentioned here. He's not undead, but none of his neighbors know the difference or care, so he's still got to hide his condition somehow or have the mob at the door with torches and pitchforks. I would even tie his bloodline score and/or RP accumulation directly to his appearance, so that the closer he is to his RP cap the more natural he appears, and remaining low on RP for extended periods of time could result in the beginning of a transformation into Awnie/Ershie
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