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  1. #21
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    When it comes to elven guilds, I think we have a couple of
    problems. The big one, though, is this: What do elves want from
    humans (or others) in trade? Elves certainly have access to goods or
    materials other races might want, but what do those races have to
    offer in exchange?

    Gary

  2. #22
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:52 PM 2/8/2008, Rowan wrote:

    >Gary, the organization you`ve mentioned for the Gheallie Sidhe in
    >the Sielwode seems too structured for the elves, particularly for the Hunt.

    As soon as I started writing up the chapter on the GS, I realized
    something I hadn`t really thought of before: it`s not really possible
    to generalize about them. Every elven realm has their own take on
    the movement, so I`m giving each elven realm a few paragraphs
    describing the GS within that realm.

    The Sielwode is, perhaps, the most organized and well-defended of the
    elven realms (Rhoubhe is supposedly, a tougher nut to crack, but he`s
    only defending a single province) and it`s queen remains firmly
    anti-human (except if he`s really handsome...) and she would appear
    to support their efforts, so I gave them a more structured system
    under the queen herself. So far the Sielwode`s GS is the most
    organized, so quoting that one might have given a false impression
    that they are typical, but rest assured they aren`t all like that.

    In fact, here`s an excerpt from the description for Cwm Bheinn, which
    exists at probably the opposite end of the scale from the Sielwode:

    ---ooOoo---

    Ruled by probably the most progressive and liberal of the elven
    regents in his attitudes towards humanity, Cwmb Bheinn has no
    officially supported gheallie Sidhe movement. The gheallie Sidhe
    are unpopular because they are held responsible for having brought
    several disastrous wars to the kingdom. Though the Aelvenking has
    not expressly outlawed the movement, he strongly discourages his
    people from engaging in anti-human activities or rhetoric, and has
    punished those who have broken his laws in the name of fighting humanity.

    In response, the remnants of gheallie Sidhe in Cwmb Bheinn have
    literally gone underground. Unable to bring themselves to publicly
    blame their popular king for his policies, they await the day for him
    to realize the error of human appeasement. In the meantime, they are
    stockpiling weapons and armor to equip an army of elven warriors when
    the inevitable war with humanity comes. This equipment is kept in
    warrens under the auspices of the kingdom`s small but loyal Halfling
    population that resides in the Holt village of Brighthaven. The
    gheallie Sidhe struck a deal with the Halflings to use several
    subterranean rooms in their community. There a handful of elves plot
    the coming war and bide their time.

    ---ooOoo---

    There`s a bit more to it than that, but you get the general idea. I
    should finish a first draft of that chapter in the next week. I`ll
    post it soon.

    Gary

  3. #23
    > Elves certainly have access to goods or
    materials other races might want, but what do those races have to
    offer in exchange?

    Rowan's list on the previous page is a useful inspiration, but here's some suggtestions for what elves might want:

    Raw materials for use in metalworking, especially from dwarven realms, as I don't really see elves mining.
    Gemstones for use in jewelry and as spell components.
    “Novelty products” such as imported alcohols and foodstuffs; some elves might acquire a taste for oranges or dwarven beers, for example.
    Items used for spell components that aren’t available in the elf realm.
    Services.
    Stuff that non-elf residents in elf realms would want, or that elves who’ve visited elsewhere and returned might want.
    Stuff that can be produced more efficiently and/or cheaper elsewhere, such as grain.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:26 PM 2/8/2008, ThatSeanGuy wrote:

    >Also, re: Guilds: Why /can`t/ elves have industry? Don`t they make things? Forge their fancy elf swords, elf armor, raise their elf horses? Wouldn`t they want to be able to control how the resources of their lands are used? Full sources are nice, but not having access to Temples /and/ Guilds seems a little excessive, especially when the reasoning for no Guilds is pretty vague. No temples? Major part of the world, not an issue. "Guilds aren`t eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

    There are two ideals are effectively a set of religious beliefs on the part of elves that put them at odds with guilds.

    First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce. The distinction? Well, guilds operate above the production level. They represent what we might want to call capital, investment, and ownership of the methods of distribution and pricing. Though guilds are often described as having a particular emphasis ranging from varsk ranches to gold mines, guilders themselves need not ever produce anything at all, and most of that emphasis is flavour text. It`s sensible flavour text based on the culture and terrain, and there are occasional game mechanical effects for those descriptions, but there`s no game mechanical reason why a player couldn`t say his guild is producing only the finest gilt leather monkey girdles that Cerilia has ever seen.

    Therefore, guilds represent the notorious (even amongst humans) middle management and bureaucracy of economics that allow for the
    accumulation and transfer of wealth. The domain level is the first rung of that process, far below what we might think of as corporations or high finance, but they are part and parcel of the same process. There is a cultural bias towards guilds as relatively large scale, economic industries that destroy the individual by taking from him the true value of his labor.

    Then there is the cultural problems that elves have with guilds regarding nature. The human (and others) take on economic processes tend to be, at best, vulgar to elves. Even where humans are described as planting to allow for reforestation of their provinces, elves find human logging repugnant. Guilds aren`t eco-friendly in the same way that human populations aren`t eco-friendly. That restriction is largely symbolic rather than practical, given that it is population not the subsequent guilds that actually does the harm, but such symbolic restrictions are taken very seriously by the Sidhe.

    There are elven guilds, but they have something of a different character than others. I`m going to address this in particular in the SotS text in a way that I`m sure some folks will find objectionable... but that`s really the whole point. We have to understand the details of the Sidhe mind in order to comprehend why they are portrayed as they are at the domain level, and those details should be strange and seemingly nonsense to humans at first glance.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 02-09-2008 at 06:07 PM.

  5. #25
    There are elven guilds, but they have something of a different character than others. I`m going to address this in particular in the SotS text in a way that I`m sure some folks will find objectionable... but that`s really the whole point. We have to understand the details of the Sidhe mind in order to comprehend why they are portrayed as they are at the domain level, and those details should be strange and seemingly nonsense to humans at first glance.
    I'm fine with this. As long as they have /something/, because just, "No, no holdings because of NATURE." seems both overly harsh, and just kind of a sloppy thought process. I'm always in favor of a square peg being messed around with instead of just saying, "It's a round hole, forget it.".

    A like the individualized GS bits, too, by the way.

  6. #26
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce.
    So we can skip the secondary economy (industry) and go right to the tertiary economy? Most trade is based on goods produced. While its possible to point to some places that engaged in trade of primary economy goods (lumber, grain) the volume required to make a buck in such high volume, low profit areas requires you to turn Tuarhiavel into Talinie.

    Guilds can't be mostly about trade. No economics can be constructed out of trade without merchandise. Harvesting tons of herbs has to be at least as destructive as human farming. You can't turn elves into humans, without turning elves into humans.

  7. #27
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 12:04 PM 2/9/2008, kgauck wrote:

    >>First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds
    >>are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if
    >>one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t
    >>really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce.
    >
    >So we can skip the secondary economy (industry) and go right to the
    >tertiary economy?

    That`s exactly what it allows us to do.

    >Guilds can`t be mostly about trade. No economics can be constructed
    >out of trade without merchandise. Harvesting tons of herbs has to be
    >at least as destructive as human farming. You can`t turn elves into
    >humans, without turning elves into humans.

    I`m not saying guilds exist without merchandise. I`m saying
    merchandise is assumed. What guilds represent is a generalized
    control over the means of distribution and production rather than
    actually addressing the particulars of production. Just as we
    needn`t worry about drops of blood to deal with hit points, or
    parries and ducking when dealing with AC, we needn`t concern
    ourselves with picks and shovels in order to adjudicate a mine. In
    fact, we needn`t even call it a mine. "Guild" is sufficient. The
    rest is flavour.

    Gary

  8. #28
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    In a message dated 2/8/2008 7:13:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
    brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

    * Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in
    Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik
    Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities
    of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes),
    ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE,
    CotS, etc.
    -----------------------------


    I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is trying
    to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing or flavor
    material that expands on the 2nd ed material.


    I disagree, at least the short descriptions, covering the similarities and
    differences between sidhe realms would be worthwhile.

    Lee.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 02-10-2008 at 03:07 AM.

  9. #29
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    I`m not saying guilds exist without merchandise. I`m saying
    merchandise is assumed.
    There are some good game design reasons to include elven guilds, especially if play includes elven realms and focuses on the domain style of play.

    That said, unless there is a really good reason for introducing elven guilds, I think it seriously undermines a central theme of the setting. Its a theme I really dislike (nature and civilization in opposition) and would happily ditch, if that's what the community wanted to do. But elven guilds really seem like a serious change without acknowledging that either guilds are no longer then harm they seem to be in the text, or the elves don't care because their power isn't really in nature anyway.

    If we just assume merchandise, it would seem that we are just assuming industry, and that means nature suffers, or we're re-writing the nature in jeopardy them of the setting.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatSeanGuy View Post
    "Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?
    Err.. don't they have an innate negative effect?

    The potential for Tuarhievel's sources were reduced by an amount equal to the level of the guild holdings present, weren't they?

    Prince Fhileraene's mother, Queen Ibel'Coris, seemed to think the reduction in source potential was worth the goodwill generated by opening the realm to trade with humans. It suggests her assassination was due (at least in part) to policies such as this.

    If Fhileraene is a Player Character, this is one of the first crucial decisions the player must make: regain the magical might of the realm by kicking the humans out (at the cost of gaining an anti-human reputation) or allowing the humans to remain and try to keep the gheallie sidhe supporters from causing internal strife (including possible assassination attempts, great captain events, and maybe civil war).

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