Secrets of the Sidhe

[kgauck]

I use three or so sourcebooks for BR pretty heavily, Excalibur in the Sword and Sorcery Series, Legends of Arthur by RPG Objects, and the Medieval Players Handbook by Green Ronin. Excalibur has a lot of good suggestions for non-human races in a fantasy setting.

The most common way to deal with non-human races in d20 games is to give each race a unique and distinct culture that reflects its nature and to put the races on a fairly even footing with humans [...]. Rather for Excalibur, non-human races can greatly benefit from being one of two different roles: nearly human, or alien and inscrutable.

They go through each of the standard races, including goblins. Later on they write:

Races that are alien or otherworldly should not be used as PC races. They should remain a thing of mystery.

Why make an important race unplayable? Well, if you are running humans, I think the elves are already unplayable, since elves and humans won't share a pavilion or dine together at court. If the PC's are humans, the elves ought to be mysterious and otherworldly because the color material in the BR setting describes them that way. So take advantage of the elves being out of play to live up to the color in the setting.

On the other hand, I don't like otherworldly dwarves. Dwarves share domains with humans (Coke and Coal as well as the Royal Guild of B-A come to mind right away) and so talk about sealing themselves underground for millennia and subsisting on fungus and rock get pitched as I make the dwarves near human. Halflings I also keep pretty near human, with some Shadow World mystery and the special abilities mentioned in the setting. Gnomes are very other IMC, being as rare as halflings in Cerilia, but only found in the Shadow World. Where the halflings left, the gnomes stayed, and they are shadows on a moonless night, dwelling in borrows like the halflings, but with strange protrusions billowing acrid smoke. They know secrets of the Shadow World and could be mistaken as Seelie by experts. I have had a single gnome encounter, but seeing rare things in the Shadow World should be very uncommon.

If I had an elf campaign, I would dial the humans toward otherness, making them dirty and squalid like a distopian version of my normal game. They might seem more akin to goblins, and I would encourage the players to see humans as just another form of goblin. Dwarves would suddenly become the mysterious other, and they would dwell deep beneath the earth, lock themselves away for centuries and eat rocks and fungus.

The same kinds of D&D game that involves the party of psychopathic killing sprees I mentioned in the thread on the elf-half-elf dilemma, often has a party with no one member of the same race as another. Human, dwarf, elf, lizard-man, and half-orc parties are pretty standard in the outsider style of D&D. I don't think that happens much in Cerilia. I think a party with a single non-human would be pretty strange. So why not use that as a license to make races that won't be PC's into something mysterious, colorful, and memorable?

[ericthecleric]

Getting back to the OP, two other chapters/sections you may want to include:
* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.
* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.

The humanoid/fey approach: I think that the document should be written from the elves-as-humanoids approach, but, since the OP stated he wanted it to be comprehensive, maybe include a small section at the end of the document that takes the elves-as-alien viewpoint.

On adding elven temple holdings: Thanks for your replies. I know it’s not canon. But someone may wish to use such information, whether for true temple holdings and/or for Taelinri holdings, and such variants should be there for completeness. It doesn’t matter if most people wouldn’t use such ideas, or if people used their own ideas in their own games.
On the subject of guilds, elves should use the same rules as everyone else; presumably the guilds owned by AD, MB, and Prince Fhileraene in Tuarhievel and Glynna Godesyr in Cwmb Bheinn all use the same rules that other guilds use (the material about the guilds in Khinasi elf realms is best ignored, IMO, and used as normal guilds).
Now, it’s canon that the elves were formed out of the spirits of four elements. It’s also canon that the dwarves were created by Moradin as in (probably) all other D&D game settings.
Here’s a potential plot device that some might find interesting; most wouldn’t but that’s fine.
The elves were formed out of the four elements, by Corellan Lorethian. Originally, the elves worshipped him, and had temples to him. But, something some/all elves did caused him to withdraw his godly powers. The action was so heinous to Corellon that he also wiped all memory of himself from the Cerilian elves; at the same time, he changed their mental state such that they won’t worship anyone. (It could also be the case that in other continents there are elves that still know Him, for they did not take part in the Bad Thing, but were forbidden from visiting them, until now.)
Perhaps the Bad Thing that the elves did has unknowingly been undone, or perhaps Correlon has changed his mind.
So Correlon sends his avatar (or an elf cleric from one of the other continents) visits various elf realms. Over time, some elven realms adopt the religion and establish temples, while other elf realms do not. It would lead to all sorts of interesting story developments (maybe not so much from a human point of view), eg. how would Rhuobhe view all this, and how would he react?

[irdeggman]

Getting back to the OP, two other chapters/sections you may want to include:
* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.
* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.

I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is trying to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing or flavor material that expands on the 2nd ed material.

[geeman]

At 03:18 PM 2/8/2008, ericthecleric wrote:

>* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven
>realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.

In BR, we have two ways of describing NPCs. The full description, a
la the chapter toward the end of most PSo texts and the little,
one-line blurbs that give us gender, race, class, level, bloodline
and sometimes alignment. I was thinking of including a few character
descriptions, but so far no one elf has stood out enough while
writing the document to merit either description. That could, of
course, change, but at this point I`ve been able to just write
something like "The Sielwode gheallie Sidhe are organized into groups
of 10-30 elves called `patrols` with one elf acting as
`captain.` Captains regularly report to `Guardians` who in turn form
a council that...." I could write up a few of those Guardians, but I
don`t think it`s really necessary unless people feel the document needs it.

Still, character write ups are definitely appropriate.... Are there
elves mentioned in passing in BR materials who who you think
particularly need either type of write up? An "Elves of Note"
chapter seems like a nice inclusion... if potentially endless, which
makes me a bit hesitant since this thing is already about twice as
big as I imagined it when I started, and at a guess I`m only about
20% through....

>* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven
>domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire;
>Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great
>Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn
>and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few
>paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.

Right now I`m giving each realm it`s own treatment in regards to
special military considerations and their attitude towards the
gheallie Sidhe. That may get expanded into one or two other place,
but we`ll see. As irdeggman notes:

At 04:12 PM 2/8/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is
>trying to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing
>or flavor material that expands on the 2nd ed material.

There`ll probably be some overlap when it comes to specific issues,
but that`s definitely the general idea.

Next unintentionally massive project: The Goblinomicon.
Then: Shadow of the Halfling!

Gary

[Rowan]

Gary, the organization you've mentioned for the Gheallie Sidhe in the Sielwode seems too structured for the elves, particularly for the Hunt. I think it's fine to say that it's a loose affiliation of elves who often informally recognize a captain whenever they are called together for a hunt. It may be a different elf each time, or it may fall to a particularly prominent elf.

Setting up a paramilitary organization with a chain of command seems un-Sidhelien to me; I doubt the "regular" military of Tuarhievel or the Sielwode have more than a couple layers of fairly informal command--more like recognized roles than a complex unit breakdown. This lack of predictable military formation baffles humans, but makes elven armies very morphic and adaptable. For example, Finnoghwin is a respected ranger and tactician whom many elves will rally behind when the realm is threatened. If he falls, the elves under his "command" will rapidly shift to Liriona, another noted tactician who respects the council and strategic coordination of her elder, Hathloir, an powerful mage with a talent for seeing the patterns among human and goblin militaries. The first two elves effectively serve as battlefield leaders, while the latter ends up acting as a general. Other elves may be specifically employed by the monarch and court to call up elves or spread commands. The point is, the ideas of "sergeant," "lieutenant," "captain," or "general" are rather fluid and unregimented among the elves.

That's how I see it, anyway

[ThatSeanGuy]

Yeah-the Hunt of the Elves always seemed more like the elf equivelent of a bunch of rich kids jumping in Jimmy's DeSoto and playing lynch mob, to me. A conbination of bitter elves who won't give up the ghost, die hard traditionalists looking for something to blame for their losing power, and bored, rebellious young elves doing what bored, rebellious young people with too much time on their hands have done since time began.

Or, in other words, to me at least, the fluff seemed to imply that most elven realms had the hardcore GSers as more of an informal social movement than a paramilitary organization. Even in the less open Elven realms in Rjurik, it's more, you put on your cloak, get your spear, and kill some monkies to keep the population down, than anything formal.

I mean, if there were so many hardcore, bitter, 'kill ALL humans' elves left, there wouldn't be a need for Ruhobe, or at least not as an Awnsheigh(Forgive my spelling, but yeesh, some of these words.). His organization is where the elves who hate humans so much that they want to activly destroy the species go, and this serves as a grim reminder to the elves that as much as they resent the humans, completly giving in to hate will leave them...less than what they once were.

Becides the obvious benefits, "Elf characters who don't feel compelled to stab the rest of the party first chance.", having the hate on be informal and the stuff of secret societies and winks and quiet negligence in the elven courts gives you more flexability, increasing the number of stories you can tell within an elven kingdom; if you have, say, a faction of nobles who are isolationist, a faction who want to join the rest of the world, and a faction who want to set the monkies on fire, you have more conflict, and more for your elf regent(s) to do.

Also, re: Guilds: Why /can't/ elves have industry? Don't they make things? Forge their fancy elf swords, elf armor, raise their elf horses? Wouldn't they want to be able to control how the resources of their lands are used? Full sources are nice, but not having access to Temples /and/ Guilds seems a little excessive, especially when the reasoning for no Guilds is pretty vague. No temples? Major part of the world, not an issue. "Guilds aren't eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

[kgauck]

"Guilds aren't eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

Guilds being destructive to the natural world seems pretty universal. Are there guilds noted for being eco-friendly?

We can tell when the iron age arrived because of ice cores in Greenland. Pollution from smelting is in the ice. Figuring out what crops were grown in, say 9th century BC Achaea, can only be done in Achaea.

I don't get the impression that there are good guilds and bad guilds, but rather than guilds are all bad, and some are just greedier than others.

[Rowan]

Guilds--stuff that elves could trade in and still seem elfy, at least to me:
Foodstuffs--nuts, fruits, berries, oils, herbs and spices, wines and meads, teas, game meat, milk, half-wild livestock meat, some grains, many vegetables; elves gather these, store some of them, exchange them in barter (fresh meat from a hunt can feed many elves, after all, not just the hunter and his family)
Plant products--herbal remedies, salves, ointments, drugs, etc, rope, paper, cloth and clothing
Animal products--leathers, sinew, furs, clothing
Architectural--building dwellings, storehouses, amphitheatres, meeting halls, courts, fortifications of some kind, palaces, inns (all very different in elven form)
Artisan products--metalworking, armor and weapons, jewelry, sculpture, paintings, musical instruments, illuminations and scrollwork
Magical things--spells, scrolls, spellbooks, spellcasting services, etc.
Training and performances (the "service" industry )

The creating and exchange of these things wouldn't feel like industry, commerce, or trade among humans. Very little coin would change hands, marketplaces would be almost nonexistent. Elves would meet in rendeszvous or moots as rather informal gatherings and social events during which goods would be traded almost as an afterthought. Most might occur merely through day to day meetings of elves as they interacted with each other, without anyone bringing wagons full of anything to peddle. Trade routes would be regular travel trails where elves met with each other. They wouldn't need roads, but I would suggest that they would either shift frequently and randomly, or randomly dissolve more often than those of humans.

At the realm level, all of this would still be captured as revenue generated because a portion of some things does get stored or put at the service of the realm (barter includes promised exchange of service at a future date) or merely ends up expanding the realm's assets (new things "built," new items forged, more horses raised, etc.). The GB raised by the monarch may represent mostly a "debt" of service or being able to use something created that only really gets realized when the monarch "spends" GB.

So yes, I like elven guilds

[ThatSeanGuy]

Rowan said it better than I could. All a Guild holding is in Birthright is a broad representation of an organized economic group. Joe and Llwyellyn Averageelf have to, y'know, eat. Buy clothes. Make a living. Chances are, they'll want guilds, if only so they don't have to work through the filthy human guild holdings just to sell their wares.

"Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?

[kgauck]

"Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?

They did have rules to this effect in the Talinie PS. Normal human activity, which includes guilds, sources drop as human activity rises. Humans can become avaricious and destroy the land even faster.

Basically, if the elves were capable of doing guilds without harming the land, I think they would have gotten around to it by now, and they haven't, so I suspect they can't.