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  1. #21
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    I gave trade as the source of metal for the elves some thought, but I tend to disagree for several reasons:

    Trade is unreliable and at least in times of war, when metals are needed most urgently, trade routes can be easily cut. It would be a serious weakness if the Sidhelien were to rely on trade alone to procure their metal and I can't really picture the Sidhelien allowing themselves to get dependant on any other race in this vital area. For this reason alone, I believe the Sidhelien should be (reluctant) miners.
    Trade would still be used to supplement their supplies, but it would not be their only source.
    Moreover, Tuarhievel and Ruobhe do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm (with Sielwode being the exception in Anuire), and trade would either have to be conducted underground, possibly endangered by orogs, or pass through potentially hostile human lands. At least for Rhuobhe, this path is out (though it can be argued that he is an atypical elf anyway and that it doesn't say much if the elves in his realm mine).

    IIRC, the elves and the dwarves came into conflict in the Cerilean past, and this would have cut off the elves from their metal source. Even if they relied on trade beforehand, I'd believe they started mining then.

    Also, does it really make sense that the dwarves trade away raw metal if they have the ability to work it and would get far better prices for finished products?

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I generally take the view that the elves trade heavily with the dwarves - my views being influenced by 1 and 2e dwarves having little magic, forest produce (lumber, foodstuffs, leather, etc) and having spare gems and metals whereas elves have the opposite.
    You describe the stereotypical view of these races here. These stereotypes have their place, but to describe a working economy we have to break the mould I believe. They same is true for the humanoid races, the orogs and especially the goblins. In standard D&D, these races are usually described as living be raiding, but I can't believe that this could sustain a sizeable population. Now, I really wonder what the goblin's economy looks like...

    To conclude, if you subscribe to the view of the Sidhelien as a fey-like race, you can circumvent the problem, otherwise I'd opt for the elven miners.

    As a side note, however, I once played around with the idea of borrowing a concept from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, Thorn trilogy. Here the Sithi, the elves in this novel, are poisoned by iron and don't forge their weapons from metal, but grow them from a magical plant called 'witchwood'. Judging from the book, there doesn't seem to be any difference in effect to a steel weapon. For the Sidhelien at least, I discarded this idea and it might also be more fitting for fey-like elves, but this could be an alternative.

  2. #22
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    Beruin schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4128
    > Beruin wrote:
    > I gave trade as the source of metal for the elves some thought, but I tend to disagree for several reasons:
    > Trade is unreliable and at least in times of war, when metals are needed most urgently, trade routes can be easily cut. It would be a serious weakness if the Sidhelien were to rely on trade alone to procure their metal and I can`t really picture the Sidhelien allowing themselves to get dependant on any other race in this vital area. For this reason alone, I believe the Sidhelien should be (reluctant) miners.
    > Trade would still be used to supplement their supplies, but it would not be their only source.
    >
    They could supplement their need of metals if trade is not sufficient by
    using several alternatives. Magic (e.g. Wall of Iron) or alternative
    materials. The "Arms&Equipment Guide" has several materials suited to
    sidhelien, e.g. bark armour, Bondleaf Wrap, moon-ivy, Bronzewood, elven
    Darkleaf, elven Leafweave...

    > Moreover, Tuarhievel and Ruobhe do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm (with Sielwode being the exception in Anuire), and trade would either have to be conducted underground, possibly endangered by orogs, or pass through potentially hostile human lands. At least for Rhuobhe, this path is out (though it can be argued that he is an atypical elf anyway and that it doesn`t say much if the elves in his realm mine).
    >
    They do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm - at least as far as
    that is known to the atlas which was written from an Anuirean point of
    view? We know of at least one dwarven realm that closed it?s doors and
    has "vanished" from the map - at least for humans who forgot where it
    was. Sidhelien would still know where they travelled some hundred years ago.
    And not bordering is something not really important - at least not if we
    consider that the adventure involving Baruk-Ahzik and Mur-Kilad had
    tunnels leading from one to the other right under the whole length of
    the Sielwode. If that is possible then ANY realm might border a dwarven
    or orog realm and not yet know it.
    > Also, does it really make sense that the dwarves trade away raw metal if they have the ability to work it and would get far better prices for finished products?
    >
    >
    Only *if* they have the ability to work it and *if* they get far better
    prices.
    Only a possibility, but if dwarven population is also declining they
    might have more ore and metal than smiths to produce something from it.
    Or they might live so isolated (e.g. the dwarven realm that closed it?s
    doors, perhaps only to humans) that they get no better price but no
    price at all if they produce something without any customers.
    > You describe the stereotypical view of these races here. These stereotypes have their place, but to describe a working economy we have to break the mould I believe. They same is true for the humanoid races, the orogs and especially the goblins. In standard D&D, these races are usually described as living be raiding, but I can`t believe that this could sustain a sizeable population. Now, I really wonder what the goblin`s economy looks like...
    >
    The mongols could live by raiding (and having some herds to get
    horsemilk) why not the goblins? ;-)

  3. #23
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    The mongols could live by raiding (and having some herds to get
    horsemilk) why not the goblins? ;-)
    No, the mongols were first and foremost pastoralists, i.e. nomadic herders.

    Mongols herd sheep, horses, cattle, goats, camels, and yaks. Although horses are the most valued animal, Mongols actually depend on sheep for their basic livelihood. Horses are the focus of an elaborate cultural complex, in which the care of horses is a male prerogative, whereas tending and milking sheep is a female task.

    Sheep provide milk, which is processed into butter, cheeses, and other dairy products; mutton, wool, and hide for clothes and tents; and dung for cooking and heating. Sheep can be herded on foot, with one person and a few dogs responsible for a flock. Mongolian dogs, which are famous for their ferocity and hostility to strangers, do not help herd sheep as Western sheepdogs do, but they protect the flocks from wolves or other predators. Sheep are driven back to the camp every night, both for their protection and to provide a concentrated and convenient supply of dung. The sheep are led out to pasture each day, ideally moving out from the camp in a spiral until fresh pasture is so far away that it is more convenient to move the camp.

    <snip>
    Each species of animal is herded separately, and herders must balance, therefore, the expected benefit from each type of animal against the cost of providing human labor to watch each separate herd and to move to the precise environment to which each animal is best suited. Sheep are basic, horses something of a luxury item, and other species are added to the camp inventory as labor power and environmental considerations dictate. The demands on human labor mean that a single household is not the optimal unit for herding. The basic unit in Mongol pastoralism is a herding camp, composed of two to six households, that manages its flocks as a single integrated economic unit.
    This is taken from the Library of Congress Country studies . Look here.

    The Mongols supplemented their herding by hunting, trade and even some agriculture. Raiding was part of their culture, similar to the Plains Cultures in America, and it was a socially accepted way to acquire property, but it was in no way the basis of Mongol economy.

    Moreover, the raided each other at least as much as other cultures.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I see the goblins as raiding mainly for quality products they cannot obtain, when their own efforts fall short (generally during bad winters) when their population expands beyond local resources or they grow bored - long hot summers would also be a prime time.

    Mining really is a mess for elves given that it involves prolonged hard dangerous labour in confined spaces (barring magic extraction) is environmentally poor then requires refining which is nearly as bad.

    I'd expect the dwarves to send mostly forged goods rather than ore incidentally - forging is also hard laborious work which has significant building and tool needs with notable environmental by-products. Why couldn't a dwarf make arrowheads or fine rapiers in the 'elven style'? The elves would still need to enspell the goods but that follows fairly readily given the strong mystic ties of elves - and I can see a dwarven master craftsman happily following detailed mystic instructions to provide the blade necessary for even the more esoteric enhancements - and trading the blade forged for enchantments laid upon an axe he forged at the same time with both sides considering themselves to have gotten by far the better part of the bargain.

    I guess it depends on how urban you want elves to be as a race - the more buildings and general 'civilisation' you give them the more they need to produce their own goods. If most elves own nothing beyond what they wear and carry with a few dozen buildings being 'a city' then trade is more than sufficient to equip them.

  5. #25
    Junior Member Kell's Avatar
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    None have mentioned bog iron.

    There are few needs for mines as bog iron could supply all the needs of the elves.

  6. #26
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kell View Post
    None have mentioned bog iron.

    There are few needs for mines as bog iron could supply all the needs of the elves.
    hmm, thread necro is becoming a 'thing' again, but it was fun to re-read the thread so no worries.

    There are certainly other sources of iron than 'traditional western mines', whether open cast or tunnel. Meteorite iron is very sidhe, albeit also very rare. Bog iron wasn't something I'd thought of, but is a good idea - though I'm not sure how much bog you would have in the stereotypical sidhe forest, though some of the rjurik and vos sidhe should be able to source iron in this fashion.

    I've lately been broadening my view of the sidhe to include all many of 'fairies', so a sidhe settlement could include brownies, treants, grig, pixies, etc - some of whom would be fairly happy underground or working as smiths which would expand the ability of the sidhe to do 'proper mining'.

  7. #27
    Junior Member Kell's Avatar
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    Bog Iron isn't always found strictly in bogs, though it is most common there. Anywhere still water accumulates on a regular basis is enough as long as there are "hard water" springs.

    "Barbarians" of Africa, Asia and Europe used this sort of iron for ages. It doesn't yield the greatest/purest iron; but with the high technology level of the elves they could certainly purify it far easier than our own ancestors did at the time and turn it into steel.

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