Sidhelien Economics

[Beruin]

I find the approach that elves are basically mebhaighl-sustained creatures quite fascinating. If I were to use this approach, I'd probably change their creature type from humanoid to fey, speaking in 3e terms. This would fit the Cerilian elves, I believe, but it's also a pretty heavy change.

The idea is rather new to me however (introduced in a few recent threads), and so far, I've taken the opposite road in trying to outline an economy that is believable and still fits the elves.

Here is a quick-and-dirty translation of the economy part of my text on elven culture:

The Taeghyrinn also function as economic entities. However, unlike human families, the Sidhelien of a Taeghyrion exercise a large number of different activities. To the Sidhelien, individual preferences and interests are more important than upholding a family tradition.
Agriculture is of special importance to secure the food base, but is very different from human agriculture. The Sidhelien do not cultivate large areas of land and also do not raise huge herds of cattle. Oats are the only type of grain cultivated in smaller fields. These serve as a supplementary diet for the famous elven horses and also constitute the basic ingredient for a number of foods, like the famous Sidhelien nut and fruit breads. Fruit and nut trees are cultivated in large numbers at any elven settlement. In addition, the Sidhelien cultivate a multitude of ground fruits and vegetables. In contrast to humans, they don not resort to single-crop farming. The plants they use are either integrated into the natural flora or form small fields where different plants grow together. The most famous product of their agriculture is wine. With regard to growing, breeding and processing the grapes, the Sidhelien farmers possess a skill unmatched by any other race. Livestock-raising is largely unknown. The greatest exception is the breeding of horses. The horses however serve as mounts and are not raised for their meat or milk. The animals also live semi-wild. The Sidhelien also domesticate a number of birds, mainly pheasants, ducks and partridges, that are appreciated for their eggs and meat. Many settlements also have fish ponds and bee hives.

The Sidhelien are famous for their craft skills, especially regarding wood- and leather-working, ship and boat building and the manufacture of textiles. They are also outstanding smiths, if at second place behind the dwarves. On the whole, however, they produce much less than the craftsmen of other races. For one, the Sidhelien are perfectionists and mass production is unknown to them. The manufacture of a single special object can easily take several years. In addition, they usually produce to meet an already existing or expected need, rather than producing on a large scale for supply or trade. The most outstanding products of the Sidhelien are fast and slim ships and boats, musical instruments, dyes and textiles as well as weapons and armour, especially spears, bows, swords and chain armours. The Sidhelien produce small numbers of banded and half-plate armour, but don’t produce full plate.

The question, though, is how does that economy function? Do elves
owe their liege feudal service? Is there a tithing process? Is
every transaction bartered or is there some sort of medium of
exchange? How would a tutor (Taelinri) be hired and paid? Surely
not every elf is a vintner and bottles his own wine, cobbles his own
shoes, feathers his own arrows, constructs his own treasure chests,
weaves his own rope, bakes his own wheybread, etc.

Gary

I'd say this is what the houses I termed Taeghyrinn are for. These are basically self-sufficient, though some may specialize. They do have specialized craftsmen, but their might also be elves who one day help the fletcher make arrows when its needed or the mood strikes them and the next day they're off to watch the birds an pick some grapes.

[Beruin]

With regard to ships and boats, this is homebrew stuff for my campaign, as already discussed here and in the following post.

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 12:44 PM 1/25/2008, bbeau22 wrote:
>
>> An elf that fights in the army of course does it out of love of their
>> home land. But they must be clothed, eat and sleep. They have no
>> time to provide for themselves so trade must occur.
>
> The Sidhe don`t sleep... but an army does mean some sort of economic
> activity as they must be equipped, fed, lodged, trained, etc. Elves
> are, no doubt, much more self-sufficient than other races, but their
> mounts still need food and care, their weapons sharpening, and even if
> they "work" without pay, simply dedicating their time can be accounted
> for economically.
>
...
The difference between a sidhlien and a human army is not only that the
Sidhe do not sleep (but sill rest in some way) but also that a human
army must *constantly* muster and train new recruits as soldiers retire
from service due to illness or old age. This drain does not exist in a
sidehlien army as there are no diseases (that in reality broke even huge
armies) and the same sidhelien that had his training a thousand years
ago can serve a dozen times in the army where a human army would have
needed to train say 12 new recruits for the same job.

[AndrewTall]

In terms of an over-arching economy I'd note that immortality has a major impact on whether a currency is required.

In life random fortune will inevitably lead to both times of plenty and times of hardship - by whatever standards these are measured. Modern human economics indicate that the prudent concept is to store wealth during times of wealth and therefore be able to endure through times of hardship using the stored wealth.

Other economic systems have existed however and imo are more suitable to elves, such as systems under which wealthy families gift their wealth - even to the point of penury - to those less fortunate, in the understanding that having done so the community will value their contribution and in later years when the family is in need another family which has been more fortunate will gift wealth to it in turn. As long as the entire community does not fall upon hardship at once this concept of gifting wealth is very functional although it assumes that gift reciprocation imperatives exist within elves as they do in humans.

The system used then impacts whether wealth is retained - which needs a non-perishable system of currency, or whether it is not retained in which case currency is less necessary.


I would expect some degree of specialisation to arise in elven society simply through the time that an elf can spend learning a skill. This specialisation in turn will lead to trade - generally through service or barter. This is simply due to the fact that elf A will make a desired item in say 3 months to an exceptional degree of skill having enjoyed themselves all the while doing what they love whereas unskilled elf B would take 6 months and end up with something barely functional having endured the hardship and boredom of labour throughout. Far more likely that elf B would think of something elf A would like, obtain it and swap it for the item elf A wants, adventure opportunities can arise when elf A has very few but esoteric needs for which they might swap the desired item.

This does not work as well for specialists who are required by the community - for example a midwife (who would also likely be skilled at child rearing not merely child birth) - every child is precious and loss through incompetence would be unthinkable. In this case the midwife would still need food, clothing, etc which could be bartered for their aid - although most likely in a gift reciprocation rather than formal debt obligation and payment scenario. These necessary functions would however likely need some other 'payment' and being continual and ongoing the community could not rely on a taste for silk clothing, or whatever. I would expect that these necessary roles have a significant social cachet in order to 'compensate' the elf for the burden of undertaking them.

[Rowan]

So AFAIC, their goods are all made by their owner, magically, from magically acquired materials. Spells to summon common materials are pretty low level, so immortal beings with a favored class of wizard should have no problem mending their items with the mend spell, creating whatever they need that way, and only crafting objects from such materials for their own use.

What does "AFAIC" mean?

I really don't think elves are self-sufficient nearly to the degree suggested. They would have no reason for any form of civilization if so, and would exist as random, wandering fey spirits more akin to dryads; having any sort of BR kingdom and any realm-level play is incongruous to self-sufficient elves. Civilization exists at least as much because of the efficiency of division of labor as anything else, and division of labor is not necessary if everyone can provide all their own wants and needs by themselves.

No, I like Tolkien's elves much more. While he didn't give tons of details that I'm aware of about how elven economies might work, I think it's fairly evident they maintain a form of civilization great enough to be measured in economic terms--I note also that BR implicitly requires such civilization to even have elven realms playable under domain rules.

So, elves do specialize in skills and social roles, particularly when creating buildings (endeavors which require many elves working together; the many palaces and towers spoken of in BR material indicate that elves DO build, and aren't just homeless nomads). I think elven armies are actually much more self-sufficient than human armies, though this is not reflected in the rules (they should be very cheap, IMO, although it should be major limitations on keeping standing armies).

Beruin, I like your description of elven goods for the most part. It seems, though, that elves work in stone quite a bit, too; it's longer lasting than wood, and once a gain the many towers and palaces spoken of in BR literature strongly imply this. Tolkien's elves did as well.

I would add that elves likely produce and gather large amounts of nuts and oils, including olives, coffee beans, cocoa, vanilla, almond, etc. These along with herbs and spices, a huge variety of teas and fruits, would be highly sought after by humans. Some nuts can also be used to produce mashes and even breads of a sort, accounting for elven waybread without large cultivated fields of grain.

For food, elves may actually raise and nurture semi-wild populations of a wide variety of "livestock." These would include turkey and a huge number of game birds, rabbits, hares, squirrels, pigs and boar, deer, sheep, and goats; from these they may gather eggs, hides, and milk, as well. They need not maintain vast and dense herds because elven populations and food needs are smaller, so these would be somewhat free roaming (semi-wild, as I said before), and would likely be hunted rather than led to slaughter--humans would very likely think that elves just hunted and didn't in fact raise livestock. With this variety of food sources, elves have much in the way of exotic foods to export (though in somewhat small numbers), and the diet of common elves would likely make even great kings envious for its gourmet variety (though humans would might miss having fewer grains).

I do think elves actually would make use of some timber. Most elven goods come from good stewardship of the forest and maximizing its productivity. This would require thinning some stands of trees, removing deadwood, clearing some areas of dense growth prone to devastating fires. Like any other creature, elves influence their environments, and the elven woods are like to be the best kept, most healthy and productive (rich with life) woods around.

Lastly, I agree with Andrew that elves do have a method of storing wealth. Elves in most literature seem to be organized into "Houses," and indeed I think these suggest strong familial ties that, while being quite different in many ways from humans, humans would get the impression that elves had "nobility" because of these houses. Houses would store some degree of wealth, even foodstuffs though elven food supplies would be far more stable than humans' (nuts store very well). I think the BR generation of GB would be in many goods and materials, and individual elves as well as the houses they belong to would be quite rich by human standards, though not because of any hording or greed but merely because of elven immortality, quality, and lack of consumption of goods. I imagine elven treasuries to be huge.

[kgauck]

What does "AFAIC" mean?

As Far As I'm Concerned.

[Beruin]

Beruin, I like your description of elven goods for the most part. It seems, though, that elves work in stone quite a bit, too; it's longer lasting than wood, and once a gain the many towers and palaces spoken of in BR literature strongly imply this. Tolkien's elves did as well.

Well, as I pointed out here, I originally intended to include three elven cultures IMC and the most advanced of these would build in stone, while the Sidhelien build wooden tree towns. This would be one of the distinguishing marks between the cultures. For standard BR, one could possibly distinguish between elven nations, i.e. Tuarhievel elves build in stone, Sielwoode elves in wood.

I would add that elves likely produce and gather large amounts of nuts and oils, including olives, coffee beans, cocoa, vanilla, almond, etc. These along with herbs and spices, a huge variety of teas and fruits, would be highly sought after by humans. Some nuts can also be used to produce mashes and even breads of a sort, accounting for elven waybread without large cultivated fields of grain.

For food, elves may actually raise and nurture semi-wild populations of a wide variety of "livestock." These would include turkey and a huge number of game birds, rabbits, hares, squirrels, pigs and boar, deer, sheep, and goats; from these they may gather eggs, hides, and milk, as well. They need not maintain vast and dense herds because elven populations and food needs are smaller, so these would be somewhat free roaming (semi-wild, as I said before), and would likely be hunted rather than led to slaughter--humans would very likely think that elves just hunted and didn't in fact raise livestock.

Many of the plants you mentioned require at least a Mediterranean, if not a tropical climate, so I'd count them out in general. Most of Cerilia is too far north in my view. With magical temperature and precipitation control these plants could be grown, but despite their affinity to magic I don't really see the Sidhelien regularly using such a heavy-handed approach. Instead, they use plants more appropriate for their clime, such as mint, sage, arugula,cress hazel, walnut, flax seeds and so on. They might also employ a number of plants we do not regard as edible and a few fantasy herbs might be thrown into the mix.
Another short translation from my Sidhelien write-up:

Képhalas, the Sidhelien's national dish, consists of the cooked soft inner bark (the bast) from birch twigs, garnished with steamed willow buds, apricots and ground walnut, slightly sweetened with honey. Sometimes it's combined with fish, poultry or wildfowl.

With regard to economics and the food base, I believe it's also important to decide what to include. For my campaign, I decided to largely limit the products to what was available in medieval Europe. This means no American plants like potatoes, tomatoes, cocoa or tobacco and the turkey is also out. If I ever get around to play an exploration campaign, these things might be introduced, though.

That said, I really like the idea that humans believe that the elves live by hunting alone, because their livestock is kept semi-wild.

[Beruin]

I would expect some degree of specialisation to arise in elven society simply through the time that an elf can spend learning a skill. This specialisation in turn will lead to trade - generally through service or barter.

In my view, the elven 'houses' take care of most needs for their members and here most goods and services needed are procured in a communal effort. When a young elf needs his first sword, the house smith would oversee the work, the youngster helps to the best of his abilities (and learns something in the process) and other house members might also join in and help. Daily chores like feeding the animals, gathering firewood etc. are voluntary and jointly done by those elves who find the time, and for greater endeavours, whether it's simply bringing in the harvest or erecting a new building, all elves of the house join in. This largely eliminates the need for buying or bartering daily goods.

Nevertheless, the question remains how trade between houses is conducted. Some houses might be known for their outstanding capability in a particular field, be it weaving or weapon forging, and their products or services would be sought by other houses. I don't really see the elves exchanging large amounts of coin in this case, bartering might be more common. Written IOU's could also be used which could in turn be traded.
House A wants a shipment of fine textiles from house B. In the past, it has performed a service for house C and it has an IOU for a future service from this transaction. To pay for the textiles, it offers the IOU to house B. House B accepts and can now collect a future service from house C.

Coins are largely unnecessary in such an economy and when they are minted it's probably more for ceremonial purposes than for economic reasons. A batch of coins might be minted to remember a fallen hero, to celebrate a significant event etc. and these coins would circulate and could be used in transactions, but in my view this isn't the norm.

[Beruin]

Sidhelien would need metal to mint coins and I personally see the
sidhelien not as having extensive mining operations to obtain precious
metals or having such organized structures as an "official mint of the
realm".
<snip>
Sidhelien would need to obtain metals of all sorts if they (as I see
them) refuse to dig in the earth. Others who see sidhelien as part
earthspirit will disagree.

I don't see the Sidhelien as very enthusiastic miners either, but unless you see them as magicking everything up, they just have to mine I believe.

Starting with Tolkien and including BR's Ghoigwnnwd, elves are often portrayed as skilled smiths and for this concept to work they must be able to procure their own metal, even if they supplement this through trade.
I don't see them as operating large-scale permanent mines and they probably use magic to locate mineral deposits and to extract the metal they need with as low an effort as possible (and to keep the environmental damage in control), but they do mine in my view.
In the past, they probably also used goblin servants/slaves for this unpleasant task.

[AndrewTall]

I don't see the Sidhelien as very enthusiastic miners either, but unless you see them as magicking everything up, they just have to mine I believe.

Starting with Tolkien and including BR's Ghoigwnnwd, elves are often portrayed as skilled smiths...

I generally take the view that the elves trade heavily with the dwarves - my views being influenced by 1 and 2e dwarves having little magic, forest produce (lumber, foodstuffs, leather, etc) and having spare gems and metals whereas elves have the opposite. The two races make very natural trading partners - particularly as neither desires the other's lands, or is pro-actively aggressive in the main.

To me therefore Ghiogwnnwd was not one smith but two - a master dwarven swordsmith and a primal elven spell weaver, the one forging a weapon strong enough to stand any strain, the other pouring in the magic worthy of such a peerless weapon. That of course means that to remake Tighmaevril you'd need a similar pairing rather than a single such paragon.

If you have the dwarves doing the mining, refining and forging of metals then the elven need for 'heavy' industry almost vanishes - even without using magic which fits plenty of commentary although you do need the races to be reasonably proximate - at least at some point.