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Thread: Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics
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01-29-2008, 02:52 PM #31
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IMO it seems like the Taelinri might best be captured via a series of heritage feats (like those in Complete Arcane and Compete Mage).
Elemental based (one for each) that grants some spell-like abilities.
There could be a Taelinri grand master of each elemental aspect where the feat must be taught (actually the nature and how to control it - just reflected via feat).
Perhaps half-elves could take 1 feat but no more to reflect how their heritage is outpoured.
A Pr Class could have a prerequisite of at least 3 of the feats and some high ranks in Knowledge - elven history or nature.
The Pr Class could grant the remaining elemental heritage feat and then start granting energy synergies.
I like some of the things Kenneth proposed as additional abilities.
If the power-gamers insert enough pressure then allow every other level to add +1 level to any previous class (with regard to class abilities, spells and the like) - this keeps it balanced with the aspect than "any" class can lead to being a Taelinri.
Just some thoughts here.
The Jedi master model might serve as decent basis - with the different force feats (not the Saga version but the WotC 1st or revised version).Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 04:48 AM #32
At 05:29 AM 1/29/2008, irdeggman wrote:
>Guilders also had an Int and Wis score prerequisite (albeit lower)
>so it can very much so reflect knowledge and application issues.
Yes, other classes also use Int and Wis as prereqs, but aren`t
spellcasters. When taken in combination with the remaining factors,
though, it pretty well makes them spellcasters.
>>...they are consistently referred to as elementalists,
>
>No they aren`t.
Oh, they`re elementalists.... No, it never uses the word
"elementalist" directly to describe the Taelinri. I suppose for some
reason we might want to differentiate between an "elementalist" and
"one who preaches the elemental origins of their race and has based
their life upon elemental philosophy as the focus of their world
view" but that strikes me as a rather weak quibble, so I`m going with
"elementalist" as a descriptor of both their philosophy and their
spellcasting ability.
>They are referred to teaching the elemental nature of the elves and
>how this affects their personalities.
>
>It also goes on to say that each of the 4 elements (earth, water,
>air and fire) have a dominant influence in each elf. The Taelinir
>seek to teach them "balance".
>
>Now it would make more sense to devote a school to each element and
>have "experts" within the Taelinir on that aspect of elvinity and
>work towards that.
>
>But first we must define what each element best represents and then
>go from there.
>
>The core of the Taelinir is based on how the elements affect the elves.
I don`t think we need go into an in-depth treatment of what each
element represents in order to describe the Taelinri as a character
class. There might be some material that relates those relationships
in a character class write-up, but very few write-ups go into much
detail about that kind of thing. What material we need can be pretty
easily based on historical alchemical treatises. I have a paper that
describes this info pretty well already, and it shouldn`t be too
difficult to relate to BR since much of D&D`s cosmos is already tied to it.
The Taelinri are a very small group, and since their emphasis is
balance between the elements, I don`t think its necessary to make up
whole schools that focus on one element over another, or Taelinir who
focus on one element to lead such schools. There might be those who
are more knowledgeable about one aspect of the elements over another,
but I don`t think it follows that there must be experts within that
group on each particular element.
That said, how would you portray the Taelinri expertise in each element?
>I see them much more as elven psychiatrists then as spell casters.
Jung is noted for pointing out that alchemists were the first
psychiatrists.... The PSo Tuarhievel text, however, pretty neatly
spells their relationship to elven society out, though. They occupy
the role of priests and loremasters (often a combined concept in
human society) amongst the elves. Priests occasionally do the work
we associate with psychiatrists, but their role as "therapists"
should not be ignored. By and large, though, the game ignores such
abilities, or they are at best handled by access to a skill and maybe
a feat/special ability bonus to a few particular skills. That seems
pretty easily incorporated into a character class description.
>I mean it is just a logical to say that all elven fighters get a +1
>caster level too since that is part of their very nature.
>
>It is a stretch in my mind to "force" them to be spell casters.
Sorry, but I`m not seeing your logic there.... The Taelinri aren`t
any more connected to magic than fighters? The comparison between
fighters and the sagacious philosophers of a magical race/culture who
preach a world view associated with magic strikes me as untenably
weak. If anything, I find your insistence that they are not magic
users to be an attempt to "force" them into a rather strange
combination of noble-psychiatrist-elemental specialists. I`m not
seeing much material to justify any of those extrapolations, and
quite a bit of explicit text that says the opposite. Both in terms
of game mechanics and theme, there are simpler and more direct
methods than that interpretation.
>Heck in the way 3.5 has gone I would change them to being more Cha
>based then Int and Wis, although all three are pretty much equally
>important to their role.
They could be, but again the text describes them in very different
terms. They are consistently referred to was "wise" and "insightful"
or words to that effect rather than terms associated with
charisma. Since they`re taking on the role of priests in elven
culture, though, their relationship to Cha might be more like that of
clerics who use it for a lot of their skills and powers, but not
necessarily for their spellcasting. Elven culture already has bards,
so there`s not a lot of need to directly overlap into the role those
characters play. There is room for more than one charisma based
class in elven society, but I don`t think this is it.
>>How do you see them as nobles in spite of the text that
>>specifically says they are not?
>
>Because of the influence and morale effects.
>
>Both appear to be a part of the Taelinri structure.
Bards and priests are influential and affect morale, but aren`t
"nobles" in any particular sense. The nature of Taelinri influence
and affects on morale are closer to the human priesthood than that of
nobility. At least, that`s the import of the text. The Taelinri are
described in ways that are more similar to the BoP than the
BoR.... The differences between the Taelinri and the common concept
of nobility strike me as being pretty obvious. Nobles are (usually)
born into their role; the Taelinri come from all social classes, and
only enter the ranks of their profession after years of dedicated
study having already had some earlier career. Nobles can be of any
alignment; the Taelinri must be good. Nobles lead people; Taelinri
are teachers (which is undoubtedly influential, but not
leadership.) Those are only a few of the superficial differences;
others are just as obvious and telling.
Gary
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01-30-2008, 12:12 PM #33
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Technically by this manner of using references - elves are elementalists and it has nothing to do with the class they have.
There is a huge difference.
The text (PS and Blood Spawn) talks about elves as coming from the elements with no distinction for a specific class.
So a better fit is some sort of spell-like abilities that any elf can acess with the right amount of "training". Training that is best handled by a class dedicated to training - wait that sound just like the one we are talking about right?
And what type of class is best suited for "teaching" - the expert NPC class.Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 12:18 PM #34
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Actually the Taelinri's role in society almost perfectly fits that of the Rjurick bard and druid (see Rjurik Highlands) - minus the spell casting aspects.
They are "respected", "honored", trusted with the knowledge and history of the race, etc.Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 03:03 PM #35
At 04:18 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:
>Technically by this manner of using references - elves are
>elementalists and it has nothing to do with the class they have.
>
>There is a huge difference.
If you play Monopoly it doesn`t make you a capitalist. If you
package, market and sell copies of the game, on the other hand, then
you might get some levels in a business based character class.
Most elves might believe they come from the meeting of the elements,
but only the Taelinri preach that doctrine (that we know of.) Simply
believing you are derived from the four elements doesn`t make you an
elementalist any more than believing you are rich makes your bank
account swell (despite texts written by the "Think and Grow Rich"
types.) You actually have to dedicate time and effort to the
process, and what you dedicate time and effort to is best portrayed
through character class in D&D. Even if we cast the term
"elementalist" so broadly as to include anyone who believes in the
four elements as the basis of existence (in which case we`d have to
include most of the Western world for several thousand years) that
doesn`t mean everyone who holds those beliefs are dedicating their
time and effort to them in such a way as to represent levels in a
character class.
All the races of Cerilia are religious in one way or another, but
relatively few of them are priests. Even if all elves are
elementalists (small E) that doesn`t make them Elementalists.
>The text (PS and Blood Spawn) talks about elves as coming from the
>elements with no distinction for a specific class.
>
>So a better fit is some sort of spell-like abilities that any elf
>can acess with the right amount of "training". Training that is
>best handled by a class dedicated to training - wait that sound just
>like the one we are talking about right?
The text describing the process of becoming a Taelinir definitely
does not make it sound like the kind of thing any elf can do.... Why
give a magical race spell-like abilities rather than actual
spells? What`s the objection to the setting`s definitive
spellcasters having a prestige class that has spellcasting?
>And what type of class is best suited for "teaching" - the expert NPC class.
If teaching were their only role then I`d have no problem with an NPC
expert class being used to portray them. Their role is described in
ways that explicitly go beyond simple teaching, though, so the NPC
class in insufficient.
>Actually the Taelinri`s role in society almost perfectly fits that
>of the Rjurick bard and druid (see Rjurik Highlands) - minus the
>spell casting aspects.
>
>They are "respected", "honored", trusted with the knowledge and
>history of the race, etc.
Rjurik bards are in many ways more Celtic what with that culture`s
druidic influence, so I`d be cautious with drawing the comparison too
broadly. Culturally, the Sidhe are, for lack of a better term,
godless Celts. Or, perhaps more accurately, they are the embodiment
of the faerie "godlings" of that culture`s mythology. The Taelinri
are loremasters and teachers, so there`s definitely some cross-over
between the thematic roles of the Rjurik bards and the Taelinri, but
since all human bards are derivative of the elven ones I think you`ve
got the comparison back to front. It should go: Rjurik bards perform
some of the things done by Taelinri in elven lands.
The lion`s share of the text describing Taelinri falls under the
title "Culture and Religion" not "Art and Entertainment" indicating
they are meant to be more priestly than bardic. Elves already have
bards, and Rjurik (all human) bards use them as a prototype, so if
the Taelinri are like bards then they`d have to be a sort of
super-bard. I`m not particularly averse to such a description, but
it`s a bad idea to ignore the explicit text that says:
"They are not priests, but in some ways serve a similar function."
That`s pretty definitive. Do they have bardic functions? Sure. Are
the better compared to Rjurik bards then human priests? Very
unlikely. The texts never draw such a comparison, despite ample
opportunity. Aside from being treated as "honored guests" in a way
that does parallel that of the Rjurik attitude towards bards, and
their role as loremasters the comparison starts to slow pretty quickly.
Gary
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01-30-2008, 04:35 PM #36
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So an elven philospher (since that is what we are talking about) must be a spellcaster?
That is the comparison and extrapolation being made.
Making them spellcasters pretty much follows the path that a spellcaster makes for a better Taelinri than anyone else which is what your logic is in essence doing.
I'm going to work up some sort of elemental heritage feat progression to see if I can capture where I'm coming from. Using a feat progression allows any class to qualify equally - which is very much what the 2nd ed text states.Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 04:41 PM #37
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Here's a question.
Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?
This doesn't seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the "balance" of the elemental nature of elves.
It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be "lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than what was written before.Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 04:49 PM #38
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But the text is very clear that:
"The taelinri come from all social classes and professions, with one exception: no elf who embraces the doctrines espoused by worshippers of the deities of other races may ever become a taelinir. It is as likely for an elven rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a philosophical scholar. This elite groupd has counted powerful mages and simple craftsmen among its number."Duane Eggert
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01-30-2008, 05:19 PM #39
At 08:35 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:
>So an elven philospher (since that is what we are talking about)
>must be a spellcaster?
>
>That is the comparison and extrapolation being made.
It certainly is. (Extrapolation has taken a beating in the BR
community recently....) In this case, there`s going to have to be
some comparison and extrapolation since we didn`t have prestige
classes in 2e, and the materials that we do have are incomplete.
>Making them spellcasters pretty much follows the path that a
>spellcaster makes for a better Taelinri than anyone else which is
>what your logic is in essence doing.
Do you mean a spellcaster in his previous profession? I`ve abandoned
the "+1 level of existing class" in favor of their own spell lists,
so a rogue or "craftsman" who became a Taelinri would not be
penalized by losing spells.
>I`m going to work up some sort of elemental heritage feat
>progression to see if I can capture where I`m coming from. Using a
>feat progression allows any class to qualify equally - which is very
>much what the 2nd ed text states.
Cool. I look forward to seeing it, and unless you object I might use
some of that material in a prestige class as special abilities. I`m
pretty well sold on the idea that it is a prestige class, but if what
you come up with fits and works better it could well change my mind.
>Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?
>
>This doesn`t seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the
>"balance" of the elemental nature of elves.
>
>It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be
>true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be
>"lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than
>what was written before.
It`s an interesting question. The Taelinri would certainly seem to
be "unelven" in this regard.... The elements are neutral or even
evil in the standard D&D pantheon, and various elemental creatures
(genies) have a pretty standard range of alignment when it comes to
law and chaos. As elves themselves it seems odd that they would have
some sort of alignment requirement that takes them away from typical elves.
I suspect the idea there was for them to represent a force of
unification and diplomacy within elven communities, and to do that
they have to be "giving" and selfless, which are traits almost always
associated with the good alignments. "Teaching" is often seen as a
positive, nurturing process, so that might be part of what they had
in mind. The Taelinri are "life affirming" in many ways, even if the
lives they seem to affirm are most often elves rather than other
races.... In many ways the Taelinri have withdrawn from elven life,
and that retreat gives them a different perspective than the standard elf.
Here`s a follow-up question: Do the Taelinri support the actions of
the Gheallie sidhe? Do they favor the rule of Roubhe Manslayer?
Gary
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01-30-2008, 05:19 PM #40
At 08:49 AM 1/30/2008, you wrote:
>But the text is very clear that:
>
>"The taelinri come from all social classes and professions, with one
>exception: no elf who embraces the doctrines espoused by worshippers
>of the deities of other races may ever become a taelinir. It is as
>likely for an elven rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a
>philosophical scholar. This elite groupd has counted powerful mages
>and simple craftsmen among its number."
Ah, OK, I`m pretty sure you`re talking about the "+1 level of
existing spellcasting class" thing here. I was going to do that, but
as you note they can come from any class, so those who are rogues or
whatever would lose out on spellcasting should the "+1 level" method
be used to portray their magics. Instead, the prestige class I`m
using has its own 1-4 level spells per day and their own spell list
that emphasizes elemental magics and things that are geared towards
their role as teachers and loremasters.
Gary
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