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  1. #21
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    OK, now that folks have had a chance to express a few ideas (kudos,
    BTW, all for some interesting insights) here`s what I was thinking
    for expressing Taelinri:

    First, I think it`s a prestige class or, at least, that a prestige
    class should be available. Yes, I do think Taelinri is a title but
    there seems enough significance and importance attributed to the
    Taelinri, and their characteristics special enough to warrant
    treatment as a class. Taelinri are described as having to go through
    "extensive training, which focuses as much on direct experience as on
    study and contemplation" and that takes "many years to complete" even
    "decades." Also, I don`t see it as a standard 1-20 level character
    class because their role in elven society is as a sort of "elder" (I
    suppose there aren`t elders in an immortal society, per se, but you
    know what I mean...) and the text in PSo Tuarhievel pretty clearly
    indicates that elves become Taelinri after having been one of the
    standard character classes first. "It is as likely for an elven
    rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a philosophical
    scholar. This elite group has counted powerful mages and simple
    craftsmen among its number." p19. All of that reads like a prestige
    class to me.

    So as a prestige class, I`m thinking slow BAB progression, d4 hit
    dice, fast willpower save progression, slow for fortitude and reflex,
    and 6 skill points/level. Special abilities are still up for grabs,
    and I`m not sure what prereqs the class should have either. I *was*
    thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of
    existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the
    better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and
    progression with a focus on elemental magics. I was considering
    making up an elementalist specialist mage (in the same way I like a
    Nature school) but as I look at it, characters who were not
    spellcasters in previous class would lose out in such an
    interpretation, which seems specfically against the existing
    materials. Further, as elementalists with their own spell list they
    could have access to spells not on the standard wizard/sorcerer list,
    which bypasses the whole "school of magic" thing.

    Class skills shouldn`t be too terribly difficult to figure
    out. They`ll go along the lines of the Loremaster unless there is
    some reason to add or remove specific ones. A few feats lend
    themselves to the idea of the Taelinri, so those might make their way
    in too as either bonuses or prereqs.

    Gary

  2. #22
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?
    I would imagine that this is at least the best place to start, making adjustments as we go along.

    The Loremaster is as Gary has described, in terms of BAB, saves, and so forth, having only 4 skill points per level.

    The Fouchlucan Lyricist (from the Complete Adventurer) has a warrior's BAB progression, both good Will and Reflex saves, d6 HD, and six skill ranks per level. This class is a bard/druid PrC granting you simultanous progression of divine and arcane spellcasting (which seems outrageous) as well as continued progression of a bard's knowledge and music abilities, as well (just for heaping on) relaxation of the druid's prohibitions. While I am intrigued by the concept, this is a good argument against PrC's. Assuming one qualified for the rigorous prereq's you'd be an idiot to proceed as only a bard or druid when you could effectivly advance as both. What is useful here is some of the thought behind the class, but little else I am afraid.

    Loremaster is nice, but we want some nature flavor, some bardic flavor (spellsong, and both PrC's suggested had the Lore ability) and some of that sense that the person is an expert in some chosen field.

    For this last part, being an expert, I look to one of my favorite classes, the Scholar from the Medieval Player's Handbook.

    Clear Explanation: From 11th level, a scholar can explain what he knows with such clarity and enthusiasm that even the ignorant can follow it and make use of the ability. In game terms, the scholar may explain any of his skills (not just his Knowledge skills) to someone with whom he shares a language and that person may use the skill as if he had it at the same level as the scholar. This only lasts as long as the scholar is there and explaining, but a scholar may explain to one person as a free action. Explaining to two characters is a full-round action. Exclusive skills may be shared in this manner as well as skills that cannot be used untrained, as long as the scholar is explaining things. This is an extraordinary ability.

    I think I might limit the language to Sidhelien, owing to its natural superiority in conveying things.

    Deep Knowledge: At 12th, 15th and 18th levels, the scholar gains a deep knowledge of a single Knowledge skill. The skill must be one in which the scholar has the Skill Focus feat. Deep Knowledge replaces Skill Focus (overlaps, does not stack) and gives a bonus of +6 to the skill.

    If the Taelinri were to use the same Secret system as the Loremaster, I would put Deep Knowledge in there. The Loremaster requires Skill Focus in any one knowledge skill, so this is going to be useful.

    Memory Palace: From 14th level the scholar's memory is so well trained that he forgets nothing, even if he's only encountered it once and briefly. The GM must remind a player if they appear to forgotten something important, because the character has not. In addition, the character may take 20 on any Knowledge check concerned with recalling pieces of information. This is an extraordinary ability.

    I mention this specifically because Ryan proposed it as a feature of the Taelinri.
    Quote Originally Posted by ryancaveney View Post
    I think of them more as reference librarians; they are the people who enjoy answering questions like, "The humans next door want to make another treaty. Does anyone remember how many previous ones there were and how they ended?" Most elves just say, "Badly." The taelinri are the elves who answer, "Forty-seven in the last three thousand years. In order, their outcomes were..." It's like the difference between people who just like playing catch and those who like memorizing the batting averages of minor-leaguers from ninety years ago. Mostly it's just another eccentric hobby, but occasionally it comes in useful.
    Not all Knowledge checks are concerned with recalling facts. Some determine if the character posesses the knowledge. Generally I would say if the Taelinri is supposed to be an expert on the subject its a recalling question unless the knowledge in question is secret.

    Instant Understanding: From 17th level, the scholar can understanad situations and writings instantly. Skill checks amde to analyze a situation may be made as a free action. The scholar does not need to study and contemplate, but understands as soon as the perception (reading, listening, seeing) is complete. This also applies to descriptions, but inaccuracies in the description, well as they say, garbage in, garbage out. This is an extraordinary ability.

    Full Understanding: At 20th level, the scholar gains extraordinary insight into the world around him. When presented with a situation or theory, he understands it instantly without the need for a die roll. This understanding is complete and includes secrets. This understanding cannot easily be communicated to others, as it is an inner understanding and a product of profound insight.

    A scholar who reads or hears an account of events knows only what the account entails, but can falisfy reports that contain impossible incidents.

    The ability also includes the ability to penetrate illusions if the scholar was in a state of grace as a Charism, a gift of God. This might be a seperate ability without the requirement that the elf be in a state of grace.

    So I propose these for consideration as the Secrets or Class Abilities for the Taelinri. I included the level the scholar got them to aid in balancing them and selecting when a Taelinri might get them.

    Elton Robb produced a very nice Elementalist class for Penumbra's book, Occult Lore. The class includes a nice spell list for elementalists that is my go-to source for elemental based spellcasters.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    First off, thanks for the clarification on the advisor/councillor issue.

    I like where the Taelinri prestige class is heading and fully agree with Gary's introductory remarks on this subject. I don't have many of my books accessible right now, but here are a few suggestions:

    Slow BAB progression, d4 hit
    dice, fast willpower save progression, slow for fortitude and reflex,
    and 6 skill points/level all sound good to me. Depending on the class abilities, it could be lowered to 4 skill points/level, if we see the Taelinri more as experts in a few fields than as generalists could.

    Btw, I have the impression that the 'official' prestige classes tended to get more powerful from publication to publication, and the Fouchlucan Lyricist is a prime example, as Kenneth pointed out, but we need not follow this road.

    For class abilities, Lore/Bardic knowledge should definitely be in.

    I like Clear Explanation, but think it's quite powerful and could be abused. When applied to skills like Hide, Move Silently or Listen it could also get silly, so I'd limit it to specific skills - all craft, knowledge and profession skills would be in, and appraise, decipher script, disable device, disguise, forgery, open lock, search, survival, use magic device, and use rope also make sense. The rest I'd ditch for this ability. Basically these are the skills that take longer than a standard action and don't rely on interaction with people or a larger degree of physical fitness or agility.

    Deep knowledge is very fitting and if we expand it to include craft and profession skills, the ability offers something to Taelinri experts as well, without unbalancing the ability.

    Memory Palace, Instant Understanding, and Full Understanding are not something I'd include as they seem to rely heavily on GM interpretation - and this often is a problem for class abilities, I believe, though I'd like to hear when and how these abilities were used in your campaign, Kenneth.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    I *was*
    thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of
    existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the
    better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and
    progression with a focus on elemental magics.
    Hhm, couldn't we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.
    Perhaps a Secret opens up the spell progression or adds the Taelinri spells to a caster.

    Regarding spells, I'm not too keen on the elemental focus if I understand you correctly - many of the spells with an elemental descriptor cause damage, and this seems too aggressive for the Taelinri to me. I'd focus more on nature-based druid spells and on divinations, with a smattering of defensive spells thrown in. For the latter, I think Sanctuary is quite fitting. "Im the untouchable Know-it-all!"

    For prereqs, skill focus in any one or two knowledge, craft or profession skills would be fine and a number of ranks (10?) in any two of these skills. On the whole, the class should be attainable for a, let's say 10th lvl expert.
    A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.
    We could also develop a feat, Taelinri Initiate or whatever, that offers a minor benefit and serves as a prereq for the class.

    I'm still toying around with the idea of a Taelinri Weaponmaster, and so far the class has little to offer for a fighter (or, to a lesser extent, a rogue), but this is not meant as critique of the class. When a Taelinri class stands, I probably look if a martial class could be developed using some of the same requirements and abilities. For class abilities, I'd review the duskblade from PHB II and the special maneuvers from the Book of Nine Swords.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:45 PM 1/28/2008, Beruin wrote:

    >Btw, I have the impression that the `official` prestige classes tended to get more powerful from publication to publication, and the Fochlucan Lyricist is a prime example, as Kenneth pointed out, but we need not follow this road.

    I think I have a tendency to make overpowered prestige classes.... At least, when I plug the class features into some sort of balancing system they seem to wind up on the high end when compared to other, standard classes. This is half accident and half by design. Philosophically, I think a prestige class should be worthy of the word "prestige" but that aside it`s difficult not to put a lot of special abilities into such classes when they are meant to portray something very significant. In fact, I was surprised nobody cried "balance!" when I wrote up the Sleep Sister prestige class.... Nobody else seems bothered by them, though.

    >For class abilities, Lore/Bardic knowledge should definitely be in.
    >
    >I like Clear Explanation, but think it`s quite powerful and could be abused. When applied to skills like Hide, Move Silently or Listen it could also get silly, so I`d limit it to specific skills - all craft, knowledge and profession skills would be in, and appraise, decipher script, disable device, disguise, forgery, open lock, search, survival, use magic device, and use rope also make sense. The rest I`d ditch for this ability. Basically these are the skills that take longer than a standard action and don`t rely on interaction with people or a larger degree of physical fitness or agility.


    I think that ability was on to something too, but for some reason not _quite_ right.... I`ll give it some thought.

    >>I *was* thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and progression with a focus on elemental magics.
    >
    > Hhm, couldn`t we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.


    I have no problem with such a route. Have any other prestige classes done something to that effect? It matters little to me, but such things are sometimes stumbling blocks....

    >Regarding spells, I`m not too keen on the elemental focus if I understand you correctly - many of the spells with an elemental descriptor cause damage, and this seems too aggressive for the Taelinri to me. I`d focus more on nature-based druid spells and on divinations, with a smattering of defensive spells thrown in. For the latter, I think Sanctuary is quite fitting. "Im the untouchable Know-it-all!"

    I went through spell lists looking for appropriate elemental spells. You`re quite right about many of them being destructive, particularly those related to fire. I think the Taelinri would have access to a certain amount of that, but I left out the more obvious destructive spells while still giving them a pretty healthy list of aggressive magics. Here`s the current list:

    0th level: Create Water, Obscuring Mist
    1st level: Burning Hands, Fog Cloud, Magic Stone
    2nd level: Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Produce Flame, Pyrotechnics, Soften Earth and Stone, Whispering Wind, Wind Wall
    3rd level: Flame Arrow, Meld Into Stone, Resist Energy *, Stone Shape, Summon Monster §, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Wind Wall
    4th level: Air Walk, Control Water, Fire Shield, Fire Trap, Spike Stones, Stoneskin, Summon Monster §
    5th level: Passwall, Summon Monster §, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone
    6th level: Fire Seeds, Stone Tell, Summon Monster §, Wall of Stone, Wind Walk
    7th level: Statue, Summon Monster §
    8th level: Earthquake, Repel Metal or Stone, Summon Monster §, Whirlwind
    9th level: Elemental Swarm

    * Any elemental energy can be resisted.
    § Only elemental monsters may be summoned. At third level the spell may summon a small elemental. At fourth level it can summon a mephit. At fifth level a medium-sized elemental. At sixth level it can summon a large elemental. At seventh a huge elemental can be summoned, and at eighth a greater elemental.

    Several of those are debatable....

    >For prereqs, skill focus in any one or two knowledge, craft or profession skills would be fine and a number of ranks (10?) in any two of these skills. On the whole, the class should be attainable for a, let`s say 10th lvl expert.

    The 2e prereqs in the PSo Tuarhievel were good alignment, Int 16, Wis 17.

    >A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.

    Special: Only elves and half-elves can become Taelinri.

    >We could also develop a feat, Taelinri Initiate or whatever, that offers a minor benefit and serves as a prereq for the class.

    If the class winds up powerful enough that it needs to be balanced in some way then that`s one route.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 01-29-2008 at 09:31 AM.

  5. #25
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Hhm, couldn't we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.
    Perhaps a Secret opens up the spell progression or adds the Taelinri spells to a caster.
    This is why I am so happy with spell-points. I started off using third party systems (Soveriegn Stone) but with the system in Unearthed Arcana (p. 153) that's what I use today. For consideration for players who use this standard spell point system, if we elected to "do the '+1 level of existing spellcasting class' thing" the character would gain twice the highest spell level he can cast minus one (minimum one point). A non spellcasting charcter would gain one spell point per level. Some consideration should be made for what spells an educator might cast. I have seen suggestions of Sanctuary, Hypnotism.

    If the class had its own spell progression, then a similar progression to ranger, bard, sorcerer, or wizard might be used for this class, depending on which is most appropriate.

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    I would not add a spellcasting aspec to this prestige class at all.

    There is nothing in the written material to even suggest that they have any more to do with spell casting than does any other elve. So adding in a spell list or +1 spell caster type of progression seems wrong to me. A prestige class revolves around what is important to that class and what makes it different than a normal one. At best I would give some bonus feats, energy substitution being one of the option.

    Everything written about them suggests that they are more teachers and historians than spell casters. Elves have quite lot of spellcasting class options already - so why muck it up with another one?

    I can more readily view them as the elven equivalent of a noble (even though it is clear that anyone from a noble family is excluded from the "group").

    I like they way Kenneth is going with his suggestions and that seems to fit the "role" much better.

    Perhaps some energy resistance to reflect their "heritage" from the elements.
    Last edited by irdeggman; 01-29-2008 at 11:09 AM.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post

    We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.[/I]

    I have no problem with such a route. Have any other prestige classes done something to that effect? It matters little to me, but such things are sometimes stumbling blocks....
    Not that I know of. There are a number of prestige classes like the Sublime Chord with their own spell progression that start with a high spell level, though I think this can be easily abused. There are also a number of feats, IIRC, they are called Initiate feats that add a number of spells to a casters repertoire.


    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    The 2e prereqs in the PSo Tuarhievel were good alignment, Int 16, Wis 17.

    >A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.

    Special: Only elves and half-elves can become Taelinri.
    They latter is obvious, of course, but not really what I meant. The PSo Tuarhievel also mentions extensive training and "tests of character" and the question is what these do look like. I was thinking more along the lines of "the character must be accepted by at least three other Taelinri and complete the Test of True Wisdom before he can become a Taelinir". Something like that.

    The 2e requirements are quite demanding, but if we go from the associated ability boni, it would be more like Int and Wis of 14 or higher. I'm not to sure I'd use a good alignment as a prereq, I don't see much that would preclude neutral elves from becoming Taelinri.

  8. #28
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 03:07 AM 1/29/2008, irdeggman wrote:

    >There is nothing in the written material to even suggest that they
    >have any more to do with spell casting than does any other elve. So
    >adding in a spell list or +1 spell caster type of progression seems
    >wrong to me. A prestige class revolves around what is important to
    >that class and what makes it different than a normal one. At best I
    >would give some bonus feats, energy substitution being one of the option.

    Nothing explicitly states that they are spellcasters, but their
    primary ability scores are intelligence and wisdom, which are the
    abilities more commonly associated with spells, and they are
    consistently referred to as elementalists, which is primarily
    expressed through magic in D&D. Even rangers and paladins get
    spells, and their relationship to those spells isn`t nearly as
    specifically outlined as is the Taelinri relationship to
    elementalism. Also, classes that have been used to describe
    characters who are "sages" or "loremasters" have consistently been
    portrayed in the game as spellcasters since 1e. Lastly, the Taelinri
    occupy the role of priests in their society, and even mundane BR
    human priests have magic. On the whole, it`s tough for me to swallow
    that the wisest of the wise in a fundamentally magical culture/race
    who take on several roles--all of which are spellcasters in less
    magical human society--would not themselves be spellcasters.

    I`m still working out exactly how to portray that spellcasting
    thematically, but they are surely spellcasters.

    >I can more readily view them as the elven equivalent of a noble
    >(even though it is clear that anyone from a noble family is excluded
    >from the "group").

    The elves already have direct equivalents to nobles, so there`s no
    real need to have an analog to that.... How do you see them as
    nobles in spite of the text that specifically says they are not?

    Gary

  9. #29
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    The elves already have direct equivalents to nobles, so there`s no
    real need to have an analog to that.... How do you see them as
    nobles in spite of the text that specifically says they are not?

    Gary
    Because of the influence and morale effects.

    Both appear to be a part of the Taelinri structure.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #30
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    Nothing explicitly states that they are spellcasters, but their
    primary ability scores are intelligence and wisdom, which are the
    abilities more commonly associated with spells,
    Guilders also had an Int and Wis score prerequisite (albeit lower) so it can very much so reflect knowledge and application issues.


    and they are
    consistently referred to as elementalists,
    No they aren't.

    They are referred to teaching the elemental nature of the elves and how this affects their personalities.

    It also goes on to say that each of the 4 elements (earth, water, air and fire) have a dominant influence in each elf. The Taelinir seek to teach them "balance".

    Now it would make more sense to devote a school to each element and have "experts" within the Taelinir on that aspect of elvinity and work towards that.

    But first we must define what each element best represents and then go from there.

    The core of the Taelinir is based on how the elements affect the elves.

    I see them much more as elven psychiatrists then as spell casters.

    I mean it is just a logical to say that all elven fighters get a +1 caster level too since that is part of their very nature.

    It is a stretch in my mind to "force" them to be spell casters.

    Heck in the way 3.5 has gone I would change them to being more Cha based then Int and Wis, although all three are pretty much equally important to their role.
    Duane Eggert

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