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  1. #11
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    The Book of Magecraft has some things to say about Taelinri as well, (pg 6 or so) and they seem to be wizards.
    Actually it says:

    BoM pg 5

    Sidhelien wixards, as beings who command mebhaighl, hold positions of respect and influence in elf communities. They serve a role in society, just as taerlinri (teachers), philosophers, artists, political leaders, military commanders, and others do.”


    They are primarily teachers, who can be wizards but do not have to be.

    Looking at the second ed material I just can't find anything sufficient to warrant a class (pr prestige class - or even a 2nd ed "kit").

    They seem like a combination of the Celtic (see Rjurik) bards and druids. Bards - keepers of the knowledge and druids - keepers (maintainers) of the culture.

    As far as 3.5 classes go the expert is the closest fit with a lot of knowledge skills. Perhaps the lore master. But both seem to be a stretch. The taelinri are less of a class as they are a "role" or "position". Something "earned" or "appointed". Maybe a single feat that grants some sociel benefits (possibly bardic knowledge ?) but just not a whole lot more.

    Not every "role" in a society has its own class.

    To me bards aren't quite it either.

    Bards are masters of interaction (more so than any other class) but the taelinri do not strike me as being better at "interaction" than any other elf. They are respected for their knowledge and they are teachers and advisors (actually as I read it more like a councillor than an advisor).
    Duane Eggert

  2. #12
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    It's true that bards can be quite adept at anything, but that's because they dabble at anything - apart from their inspiring performancies.

    The Taelinri is much like that, by all means: caretakers, teachers, lorekeepers, wizards and witches (in the archaic sense of the words - wise men and women)... Call it whatever you like it, but, just as with the bard, the truth is that they may put some emphasis in an aspect other than their main focus, but they still have something that they are really good at.
    I agree with this view, but I also think that every Taelinir should have a prior specialization - the knowledge he intends to pass on. In my view, Taelinir are a bit like 1e or 2e sages - every Taelinir teaches something different, and this is not only theoretical knowledge, but also practical experience. You're focusing on the scholarly types of Taelinri, but there should also be Taelinri who teach combat techniques and warfare.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?
    For scholarly Taelinri this sounds good and it might be a good start to work on prestige classes, but as already mentioned I believe that Taelinri prestige classes should be attainable for warriors and even commoners - with maybe a few bard requirements thrown in.

  3. #13
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Just as irdeggman said, I also am against having a specific class (even a prestige class) for their role; that's was just a suggestion on my part. It's important to see the taelinri as a role, so I finally have to side with irdeggman.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post

    Looking at the second ed material I just can't find anything sufficient to warrant a class (pr prestige class - or even a 2nd ed "kit").
    <snip>

    The taelinri are less of a class as they are a "role" or "position". Something "earned" or "appointed". Maybe a single feat that grants some sociel benefits (possibly bardic knowledge ?) but just not a whole lot more.

    Not every "role" in a society has its own class.

    To me bards aren't quite it either.

    Bards are masters of interaction (more so than any other class) but the taelinri do not strike me as being better at "interaction" than any other elf. They are respected for their knowledge and they are teachers and advisors (actually as I read it more like a councillor than an advisor).
    I agree on two accounts: The amount of material on the Taelinri is brief, and there's not much to work with, though the concept is intriguing, and - second - "role" is much more important than 'class'.

    Nevertheless, I found the idea of a Taelinri prestige class (or classes) too compelling to ignore. I may have come across more negative than I intended in my last post, but I really think that crossing the Fochlucan lyrist with the lorekeeper is a good start for a wizardly Taelinri.

    IIRC, at least for FR there are a number of examples where an organization (though this is not really a fitting term for the Taelinri) offers several prestige classes, for instance I believe there are at least three harper classes (Harper scout, harper mage and harper paragon) and something similar could be done for the taelinri.

    If we follow this road, this doesn't mean that these would need to be developed all at once. I for one, would welcome a wizardly prestige class for the Taelinri, but probably won't need a prestige class for a taelinri commoner any time soon, unless as an NPC.
    However, we should give some thought to what these prestige classes have in common. This might be social benefits, maybe an aura of confidence and tranquillity, access to a number of spells or whatever. I also wouldn't count out bard-like interaction skills.
    In my view, teaching has a lot to do with interaction, and if you see the taelinri as teachers, these abilities might fit very well. For instance, a good teacher should be able to fascinate his students, so this might make a very fitting ability for every Taelinir.

    Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit lost to me as a non-native speaker.

  5. #15
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I think its a mistake to assume that a social role and a character class should be contiguous sets. I look at the noble class and the noble social role. The best way to portray a social role is role playing the character. Even so, sometimes you're looking for mechanics to reflect something that isn't already covered in an existing class. That's why you can have a noble class and a noble social role that are not contiguous (though nearly all noble class characters should be noble in the social sense). A Taelinri class doesn't have to be the be all and end all of the Taelinri social role. Any character played as a teacher, scholar, or philosopher might be a Taelinri.

    I'm not keen on the Harper-Scout, Harper-Mage, Harper-Beautician, Harper-Blacksmith model of class design. When I ditched the paladin as a class (softly, if somone wants to play the class I won't say no) what I replaced it with was the role of paladin and a set of Paladin feats. If your character has one level of priest and one level of fighter, you can attempt to get your character recognized by your faith as a paladin. Once a ritual is performed, you can purchase paladin abilities as feats. That way if you want a smiting fighter-priest who can call a warhorse, you can without having a class limit your build too much.

    The best wizard models from literature make the wizard a learned person. I have seen cases made that Merlin was a wizard, a bard, and a druid. All make sense. Its hard to make wizards into characters who know anything at all. As a single class, all they can do is cast spells. Most sensible builds use a lot of their skill points for concentration. Their high Int scores allow for a lot of extra skills, but compared a smart bard, they don't seem so learned. Most of my wizard builds today are multi-classed with the Scholar class from the Medieval Player's Handbook.

    It looks like 4e will use the same kind of ability paths that d20 modern used (or something similar) and I'd love to see wizards able to be as smart as bards (where the difference is specialization vs jack of all trades) and that's where I'd be with the Taelinri. I make nobles out of noble classed characters, rogues, and fighters, priests, and wizards with a few levels of noble. If I were called upon to make a lot of Taelinri, I imagine I'd be making them out of my Taelinri class (wizard design, druid spell list), bards, and by mixing nobles and fighters with Taelinri and bard. Since I use a spell points system, getting wizard and bard levels to stack is no problem.

    So even though I have a Taelinri class, you could expect me, given enough time, to create a bard/rogue and call him a Taelinri if he was a sneaky sidhe scholar.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit lost to me as a non-native speaker.
    A councillor is one who sits on a council. But I wonder if the meaing wasn't of a counselor, which is one who advises. An adviser is also one who advises. (Advisor is an alternate spelling.) Both a counselor and an adviser can have the same definitions, although counselor has a longer dictionary entry referring to specialized uses (a lawyer can be called "counselor").

    The root word, counsel, means to advise, instruct, or give an opinion. Its latin root is based off of consulere, which means to seek advice.

    The root word of advisor, advice, means an opinion or recommendation.

    I don't think there is much of a meaningful difference in the words. But an explanation of what the original author intended can be useful for the desired meaning and what he intended to leave out of Taelinri. This is especially true if he meant and advisor who doesn't sit on councils.

  7. #17
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 05:42 PM 1/25/2008, Beruin wrote:

    >Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an
    >advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit
    >lost to me as a non-native speaker.

    Councilor does imply a more formal, titled person than does
    advisor. As Kenneth noted, there`s the council seat thing, but
    lawyers are often often call counsel or counselors. Councilors
    attend meetings and decide policy. Advisor is more informal, and
    also implies more of a teacher position than something governmental.

    Of course, in practice the difference is often pretty gray and
    overlapping.... "On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."

    Gary

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    "On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."
    No, that's counSEL, not counCIL. It's used there to mean lawyer, just as Kenneth said. I would counsel that permanent councils are too formal for the Sidhelien. Instead their leaders get advice from ad hoc discussions with whomever is suitably expert on any given topic, achieving the same effect without adversely affecting their chaotic ways.

  9. #19
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    If you want Taelinri to be a focus from any class as long a sufficient skill has been shown I'd suggest using a feat tree with a prerequisite of say 10 skill levels, or +10 BAB, or 10 spellcasting levels, etc to represent the skill necessary.

    Although non-standard you could balance the feat tree between social advantages and disadvantages if you want chunky advantages - just think about what you actually see a Taelinri doing and what you think they should not be doing and shape the feats accordingly - that way you avoid the need for a different prestige class for each base class.

    So say Taelinri I: +1 reactrion modifier on interactions with elves, free board and lodging from any elf/elf-friend, will not be physically harmed by any elf/elf-friend, must spend 1 hour a week advising an elf to retain feat benefit, Taelinri II, +2 reaction mod on all interaction with elves, can request 1 favour a month from an elf, cannot ignore an honest request for advice from an elf, etc.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 06:46 AM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

    >>"On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."
    >
    >No, that`s counSEL, not counCIL. It`s used there to mean lawyer,
    >just as Kenneth said.

    Quite right about the spelling of the word in that particular
    sense. From the usage note in my dictionary:

    "Council, counsel, and consul are never interchangeable, though their
    meanings are related. Council and councilor refer principally to a
    deliberative assembly (such as a city council or student council),
    its work, and its membership. Counsel and counselor pertain chiefly
    to advice and guidance in general and to a person (such as a lawyer
    or camp counselor) who provides it."

    Not a particularly meaningful difference in kind....

    Gary

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