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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Different levels of knowledge, understanding, or theories about one absolute morality.
    Not in any empirically accessible sense. Different levels of understanding about one absolute truth is definitely the case for physics (in which case the underlying truth is inherently probabilistic anyway) and the other natural sciences, but not for anything involving human society. The problem is fundamentally one of measurement. If we took all the 4873 registered members of our website and tried to arrange them in order of increasing height, it wouldn't matter whether our ruler was marked in feet, meters, cubits, picas, or anything else -- the individual numbers would be different, but in a highly systematic fashion (e.g., there are always 2.54 centimeters to the inch), and the end result would always be the same. Every person would always find themselves taller than the same group of people, and shorter than the same other group of people. This is not true for morality because no large, randomly-chosen group of people will give you consistent answers about which acts are better or worse than which other ones. There will be common themes, and majority agreement on some large differences, but there will be no consistent pattern in the ordering of small details, which is where all interesting ethical decisions lie. In fact, the answers any particular person gives you tells you more about the person than it does about the actions you have asked them to order -- there is no independent calibration for the moral compass. The problem is that you cannot judge which acts are more or less moral than others unless you already have a morality to judge them with! There is no escape from this essential logical circularity; you can assume morality into existence, but you cannot construct it from more basic elements which are not equally unsupported assumptions. You can assert that a particular moral code is your personally preferred one, but there is no objective reason to pick any one of them in favor of any other as the global standard of measurement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Moral philosophy certainly does--heck, utilitarianism explicitly removes the judgment of the "good" of an action until viewing its consequences.
    But I already said you can't judge the relative goodness of the consequences either, unless you already have some preexisting standard of goodness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    (Lack of sexual reproduction) would be a major departure from their closeness to nature and the "natural order."
    Eternal youth is already a bigger departure from actual biology. So is the fact that they Pass Without Trace -- tracking them isn't just difficult, it is literally impossible. The spell description says they don't leave scent or footprints; complete physical nontrackability, as explicitly provided by the spell, further requires that they don't bend blades of grass when stepping on them or leave clothing fibers on thorns or even shed hair. Furthermore, "an elf can travel over heavy snow, soft sand, or a treacherous mountainside as easily as a human walks across a smooth wooden floor." Therefore, it is quite clear to me and many others that they are in fact not biological creatures at all, but rather a kind of spirit which feels some responsibility to watch over some of those creatures which are biological, and to appear to be biological in order to better relate to their charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Further, they'd have no problem letting the humans have all of the other terrain types, needing only to defend their forests--which as several of us have shown in the Battle Elves thread, they can do quite handily.
    Far more of Cerilia was once forested than it is now. What the elves want to do, in my opinion, is reclaim the lands the humans have stolen, and replant the forests which once grew there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    It is quite possible for humans to control sources of level 7 or higher, especially if they reduce the province level. Would elves go on crusade against these humans?
    Yes, absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Would any province of level 7 or higher start spontaneously generating an elven population?
    I am presently inclined to think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    If those elves are formed as adults and outside of families or community in these isolated locales, how do they learn anything? Might they end up being "raised" by humans or other sentient creatures, thereby becoming impressioned by their traits and culture?
    I have yet to work out all the implications of the idea I only adopted a few weeks ago as the solution to a host of other difficulties, so this is a very useful line of inquiry. I don't yet know how to answer the first question, except that I know I want it to be such that the answer to the second question is a definite no.

  2. #102
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    Ryan, if elves are so alien and spiritual, why not have no sexes? Again, sexes don't make sense, except as some extremely superficial mimicry of part of the natural order--more a mockery, since the mimicry would serve no purpose, while nature's traits tend to be ordered to a purpose.

    What I struggle with in your reasoning is that if the elves are so apart from nature and operate in ways contrary to it, how does their incarnation and behavior in things like sex and so forth not mock nature?

    As for elves wanting to retake land and replant forests, why again would elves be genocidal? It looks like more of a situation of natural competition among species. Currently the humans have outcompeted the elves. The elves wish to adapt and reverse the trend, but that doesn't require extermination. It's just normal competition.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Ryan, if elves are so alien and spiritual, why not have no sexes? As for elves wanting to retake land and replant forests, why again would elves be genocidal?
    In both cases, the answer is the same -- I think they have more fun that way. They don't need to have sex or annihilate humanity, but I think they will enjoy themselves more if they do, and as far as I can tell, the purpose of being an elf is to enjoy yourself.

  4. #104
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    Rhuobhe and ilk certainly seem more angry than happy.

    So elves exist in two sexes just so they can have sexual pleasure? Did they determine that, or did it just happen that way? If it's that arbitrary, why can they feel pain--I'm sure they'd be happier without it.

    I just don't see intelligent, immortal elves being nearly that shallow and simplistic. Sounds no better than satyrs, nor fulfills any better purpose in the game world.

  5. #105
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    At 10:11 AM 2/13/2008, Rowan wrote:

    >As for elves wanting to retake land and replant forests, why again
    >would elves be genocidal? It looks like more of a situation of
    >natural competition among species.

    One man`s natural selection is another man`s psychotic
    genocide.... Most people involved in genocide rationalize their
    actions with language that is a perversion of fundamental biological
    processes. Conversely, a lot of folks seem to have difficulty using
    the G word, no matter how applicable it might be. It is the elven
    ideal for them to dominate Cerilia. Humans might exist on the
    fringes of this elven utopia once they`re sufficiently weeded down,
    but that is the stated goal of many Cerilian elves.

    That said, there is one important distinction that needs to be
    addressed: The elves have not yet engaged in a genocide. They aspire
    to it, but they haven`t yet got around to it. One of the perils of
    being an immortal racist is that it gives one the impression that
    there is plenty of time, and if there`s one thing we know about the
    Sidhe its that they have a very strange sense of priority. Killing
    off humanity is for most elves less important than their pleasures.

    There`s a quote I`m fond of that comes from Mussolini. When he was
    asked by a reporter if it was difficult to rule the Italian people
    the Duke turned to the man and responded, "Difficult? No.... It`s
    pointless." Fascism was a kind of fad it Italy. Great
    speeches. Nice black shirts. Big rallies. Pride and big
    dreams. Those things are all well and good, but when it comes to
    actually doing something about it the Italian commitment just wasn`t
    like that of other people`s. They seemed to know beforehand that
    fascism is facile, but fettuccini is forever. Only in Italy could
    someone call himself a fascist and adopt as a slogan "Me ne frego"
    which (politely) means "I don`t care." Maybe this has something to
    do with Italy having been a superpower at one time in the ancient
    past. I`ll not speculate overmuch on that other than to say such a
    comparison between the Italians and the Sidhelien is apt in that way too.

    Just for the sake of clarity, if my comments here sound critical of
    the Italian people believe me I consider these comments to be the
    height of praise. It`s one thing to hear a leader say "Italy will
    rule the world!" and cheer. It`s another to actually do something
    about it. After all, there are fine wines and good meals to be
    eaten. Those who pick bullets over bread are fools of the highest order.

    So here it is: The elves are slackers. They do have organizations
    that kill, but they are a relative minority, there is a lot of lip
    service. Some elves are undoubtably serious in their efforts, and
    those elves are certainly dangerous.... Italians make some of the
    deadliest guns in the world, and nobody doubts the threat of a
    Barrette unless he`s very, very stupid. But because their efforts do
    not amount to a systemic pogrom of death and destruction that spans
    and entire cultural group, so they have to be recognized as not a
    truly genocidal people. Genocide requires a sort of
    single-mindedness and determination that seems to be lacking in the Sidhe.

    The gheallie Sidhe might eventually rise to the level of a genocidal
    movement, but only one nation (Rhoubhe) seems to actually plan for
    such a thing, and elves might follow along, but somehow I doubt
    it. It`s not really in their character to move with/to such a
    purpose. They`ll dominate certainly, but utterly destroy? Even when
    they seem to have had the opportunity to do that in the past they`ve let it go.

    Gary

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I just don't see intelligent, immortal elves being nearly that shallow and simplistic.
    I don't see it as shallow and simplistic at all. These are creatures of intense emotion, ruled by their passions. I think it helps the game world far more than it hurts.

  7. #107
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    Taelinri Prestige Class

    Here's the first draft of the chapter on "The Taelinri" for the Secrets of the Sidhe text. Per the discussion above I see them as a prestige class with their own spell list, so that's how they are portrayed in this document. Again, there's not a lot of graphics or formatting to this version since it's just a rough, but I did throw in a little bit just to make it readable.

    Comments welcome.

    Gary
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