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  1. #21
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    From the section on Elves on the Book of Magecraft:

    Sidhelien understand better than any other race the mysteries of mebhaighl. The elves learned early [in history] how to harness mebhaighl and use it as one of the land's energy resources. Magic is as familiar and nonthreatening to them as windmills and waterwheels are to humans.
    Wind and water would have made more sense, since its wind and water that are the energy resources medieval humans used, the wind and water wheels were energy collectors, but I digress.
    Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a calling to become wizards.
    The potential to wield true magic must include the ability to sense magical energy and some sense of what to do with it. The question becomes how intuitive is this ability, as opposed to a trained and practiced skill that might require a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) test.
    For instance, further down we are told that during the meditation period of wizards:
    Spellcasters return to a favorite location and attune themselves to Cerilia's arcane forces.
    Can all elves atune themselves sufficiently to sense the flow of the mebhaighl, and this line referts to the rarified skills of a practitioner, or is this something only specialists can do?

    Either way could be prefered and still make sense. A stranger comes into a Rjurik camp (or any tribal people) and the shaman or druid declares that the stranger has the spirit of the tribes totem animal, the tribe regards the stranger as a friend of some kind. So even if it required the acknoledgement by a wizard or taelinri that this stranger flowed with the mebhaighl, rather than being like a stone in the stream, the end result is that the Sidhe regard the person as magical, like them, not like humans, who are dull to the flow of the sourcy stuff.

  2. #22
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noquar View Post
    I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about.

    It is an extrapolation from the following:

    Book of Magecraft (pg 16+) under locating sources.

    “Others capable of commanding true magic who have strong ties to the land – such as elves, or humans who were born or raised in the province – might also feel this summons".
    Duane Eggert

  3. #23
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    Just my 2 cents

    Acceptance is linked to pity. The half elf is just another victom of the human blight on the world. It is not the offsprings fault the elf parent was wronged.

  4. #24
    Member Noquar's Avatar
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    Book of mage craft ?

    From Book of magecraft pg 16+: The book does mention wizards, elf's and humans born in the province may feel a pull to magical sources in the land. The distinction here is that even humans can detect this magical flow, so why don't they except half elf's? Also this sensing pertains to th land sources not individual magical potential. The passages sited do not mention elf magical sensing in each other or anyone else, just detecting it in the land. The only advantage elf's seem to have is they don't need to be blooded. Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up. I still defend a main manual error position. I will continue reading on this supplement for any evidence to the contrary. Thanks for the source location.

  5. #25
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noquar View Post
    Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up.
    That's why we call it extrapolating.

  6. #26
    Member Noquar's Avatar
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    extrapolating

    I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL

  7. #27
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    This is an unworkable approach. Because players do care about such things that were poorly explained, it must fall to us to explain them. So if you reject player explanation, you can have no answers. The text is too brief, too contradictory, and in some cases, too stupid to be the only source of facts.

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noquar View Post
    I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL

    You will have a very, very difficult time running any BR campaign if the only thing you are using are "published" materials. They are incomplete and inconsistent. They leave a tremndous amount up to the DM to determine how he wants things to work (much, much more so than any other setting did).

    Note that the text says that "others capable of wielding true magic who have strong ties to the land such as elves or humans who were born or raised in the province"

    Note that only blooded humans are even capable of wielding true magic while any elf or half-can regardless of being a scion or not.

    Also note that it states the human must be born or raised in the province but that extra condition does not pertain to elves.

    So elves inherently have a much stronger tie to the magic of the land than do other races - period. Half-elves share this tie.

    Also check out the description of the Sie (pg 27 of Blood spawn) for information on elves and their tie to the land and magic.

    "The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves)."


    "The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself."
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:15 PM 1/24/2008, Noquar wrote:

    >I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of
    >the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct
    >solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on
    >known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
    >sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
    >last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.
    >this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun,
    >but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of
    >assumptions (me know what they do).

    Aren`t you extrapolating with your own explanations of elven
    attitudes? On what are those extrapolations based? What references
    do you have for your assertions that elves would look down on
    half-elves, elven wizards and magic would not drive elven culture,
    have zero tolerance for races that have hurt elvenkind, and that
    elves are not "alien" to non-elves? These extrapolations are
    explicitly refuted in the BR Rulebook:

    Regarding acceptance of half-elves by elves: "The elves regard such
    offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully in elf society."

    Regarding the "alien" nature of elves: "The elven heart is
    unfathomable to nonelves...."

    Regarding "zero tolerance" of races who have harmed elves: "From time
    to time a particularly handsome or beautiful human with courage and a
    gracious manner may walk among the Sidhelien unscathed. A few humans
    have even been accepted as equals in the elven courts."

    Those quotes are all from p6 of the Rulebook.

    Regarding elven wizards and magic are not being driving forces of
    elven culture... well, there are references all over for that not
    being correct, so I`ll just leave it at them being "creatures of
    faerie dust and starlight" (also p6.)

    That said, the question I`m looking to answer here is why half-elves
    are accepted by elves, not rewrite the text to suit some new and
    radical extrapolation. What explanation fits the existing materials?

    >I guess they never expected fans to care this much about
    >half-elf`s...........in fact why do we ? LOL

    I don`t know if you`ve been checking out other threads, but I`m
    interested because I`m putting together a (hopefully) comprehensive
    BR supplement regarding the Sidhe.

    Gary

  10. #30
    Member Noquar's Avatar
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    to clear things up

    again: I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
    >sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
    >last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.

    You are 100% correct. I have been "extrapolating" my own view on the half-elf issue. Again thats not what I was looking to find and If you read carefully from my other post you can clearly see that I had put to rest the argument as a difference in points of view. The reason I asked for concrete evidence of elven magical sensing in BR material was I did not want ot continue disagreeing If published material showed this was an innate elven ability. I was not sure If magic sensing in elves was supported by a published BR product. So far it is not. to infer or extrapolate it is with a small quote from a text is not help. I understand that this has all been a argument based on extrapolation and opinion. I am doing my best to express my own reasoning as best as possible. I follow the BR materials put out by this community closely and feel the direction the Half-elf material is going is wrong. I stated this in earlier posts as this is all based on personal spin or as you put it multiple times "extrapolation". I have never claimed not to be. I was pointing that the above was not evidence for this magical sensing and that in my opinion "extrapolation" was just more guess work. In a direction I do not agree with. I hoped this forum was for expressing ideas and trying to get solid BR material out? I do apologize If you don't like the way I am trying to contribute, please do not mistake my intentions. The last comment was a joke directed at myself, and clearly lost on you ") (another joke). Again as I have stated before numerous times, I do not agree with the others "extrapolations" on how half-elf acceptance is being handled and have given many explanations why with my own "extrapolations". I was pointing out that the BR material does not clearly show that elves have magic sensing ability (besides land), and wanted to know If anyone had found BR material that talks about it. I think you should consider leaving it out of the materials you plan on creating on the Sidhe. Again I propose that the main BR manual stance and comments on Elven welcoming of half-elves is contradictory to other material that makes more sense. I hope I have been clear this time, and no misunderstanding or hurt feelings have been communicated.

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