The Elf--Half-Elf Dilemma

[kgauck]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.

[irdeggman]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.

Right, but elves do have propensity for war - historically.

They have been at war with just about every humanoid race on Cerillia.

So there is something "genetic" (or at least very, very strongly societal) about being an elf and being at war/agression.

[geeman]

At 06:48 PM 1/22/2008, Noquar wrote:

>If we simply think like the elven people for a bit and take in to
>consideration they consider themselves a dying race, then every elf
>child and even half elf would be precious ( my precious ).

I think this would be a very good explanation from the human POV for
the elves accepting half-elves, but I`m not sure it is the *real*
reason. The Sidhe are not particularly practical.... Here`s the
current draft of this section in the document I`m fiddling with:

One of the strangest aspects of Sidhelien culture is their attitude
towards humanity, particularly on those occasions when elves and
humans have bred. Though there is considerable animosity towards
humans amongst most elven communities, the offspring of elves and
humans are considered fully Sidhelien and accepted into elven society
without reservation.
To humans, the acceptance by elves of their half-elven offspring
seems purely pragmatic. After all, their population is in decline,
and the birthrate amongst elves is quite slow, so humans believe
elves are willing to take on half-breed children to compensate for
some of their disadvantages. But this could not be further from the truth.
In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I stopped there because I wanted to get some input from folks just to
see how others thought on the subject.

At 06:22 PM 1/22/2008, kgauck wrote:

>If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then
>that`s what they sense.

There we go. That`s got a very nice symmetry and style to
it.... It`s "in the blood" as it were, which also has a nice
symmetry to it when juxtaposed with the function of bloodline and
magic use. Let`s see where that goes....

Good ideas, folks.

Thanks,
Gary

[ryancaveney]

I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

Ooooh! This I *really* like.

[Noquar]

"the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences."


This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain further as to why this would be. Earlier in the post many KEY differences were pointed out (sleeping!, not-immortal!) , so how are they not able to distinguish the two from each others. It always a DM's given right to say " you may not understand it but , it just is" . It is hard to believe a people advanced as the elves in Birthright , that live forever and gain vast amounts of knowledge would so easily act with out regard to the fact that half-elf's share racial attributes with a creature (humans) that have killed countless elven people. They are different enough to require new game rules for them and will in the grant scheme of things live very short life spans in comparison to the immortal half kin. Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans. Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding. I guess Im to human to understand otherwise , or maybe I should join Rhuobhe "manslayer" in his quest to ride the lands of Half-Elf abominations!

again any opinion on elf's is with in the DM scope and how he wishes to run Birthright.

[kgauck]

Because the characteristic that the elves think are important are shared characteristics by both elves and half elves. While a half-elf may have human characteristics, these are not important to the elves.

[Lee]

------------ QUOTE ----------
3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?


Well, do we know for sure that half-elves can have offspring at all? IIRC,
there are at least some hybrid animals or plants in Real Scientific Life that
cannot reproduce at all?

Admittedly, that`s an ugly thought, so I`d rather it not be the answer.
I would rather it be that a half-elf + elf = elf, and Half=elf + human =
human. Much simpler.

I`m an adherent of the idea that some elves (perhaps some of the
`Houses` to use the concept raised earlier today) have been deliberately
creating some or all of the half-elf regents around Cerilia, seeking to influence
the human nations nearby, and that there is a long-long-term plan to subtly
take over.

A friend of mine suggested that maybe the `race in decline` idea is part
of the reason some elves mate with humans-- they cannot have elf+elf
children anymore, at all. I think we spun a wilder idea, that the elves are an
evolution (or devolution?) from fey like dryads, nereids, nymphs, etc.; and
half-elves are another step along.

Lee.

[geeman]

At 04:26 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>>the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and
>>a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to recognize
>>members of their race automatically. Half-elves are considered
>>fully elven despite their obvious differences.
>
>This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain
>further as to why this would be.

I`m going to flesh this out a bit more in the document, but the basic
idea here is that as beings of magic the fundamental thing that they
relate to in each other is their magical nature. Half-elves have the
same capacity to cast true magic that full elves do and are,
therefore, recognized as being Sidhe despite such "trivialities" as
having to sleep, their capacity to cast divine magic, and their
mortal nature. Those are pretty big issues when considered from the
human POV, but elves NEVER consider things from the human POV. The
only thing that matters to them are their own perceptions, and to the
Sidhe that is primarily related to magic.

One of the things that also needs to be clarified is that this
perception is related to their Sidhelien background rather than
bloodline, and I`ve always favored a macro (cosmo?) explanation for
this kind of thing: The reason magic is restricted in BR is that the
Shadow World acts as a sort of energy buffer between the prime and
other planes of existence. In the absence of some sort of connection
to the planes beyond the SW only the weaker magics (low level spells
or illusion and divination) are able to pass though. Magic is
extra-planar energy being channelled into the Material Plane in ways
that would otherwise defy the Natural Laws. Divine magics are
allowed without restriction in BR because the spells cast by priests
are derived from their gods who exist on the Outer Planes, and that
function is based on a very different process from that of
elves. Bloodline, of course, also allows people to cast true magic
but the connection that allows a human to cast true magic is similar
to priestly magic because it connects him to the Outer Planes through
his relationship to godly powers (which exist on the Outer
Planes.) In essence, a character with a bloodline carries his
pantheon around within him. This is almost entirely an extrapolation
on my part, but it`s loosely based on ideas expressed in BR,
Planescape and earlier versions of the D&D rules.

In contrast, the Sidhelien ability to cast true magic is either based on:

A) Their connection the material (Aebrynis) plane.
B) Their connection to the Inner Planes as creatures made up of the
four elements.
C) Some combination of A and B.

These ideas will be more fully fleshed out in the "Secrets of the
Sidhe" document, but that`s going to be the idea.

>Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination
>and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans
>that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans.
>Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could
>be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding.

Hence the thread.... It would seem logical that elves would react as
you describe, but the elves aren`t logical, so we have to abandon
such notions. Humans are wary of half-elves for reasons like those
described above, but the Sidhe are described explicitly as having no
such biases, and they are a pretty biased group, so the question I`m
trying to answer here is, "why would that be the case?"

Gary

[Noquar]

That makes things clear.

I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about. Regardless ............ sadly we agree to disagree. I will not beat a dead horse. I have a chem and micro bio test comming up so I cant keep checking this post LOL.

Last try to sway voters:

In my campaign I prefer a conservative/low power view and would prefer that elves not be able to detect mebhaighl from/in others as an ability. Seems most elves would not be wizards (or maybe they are) in society and the few wizards would not drive society's decisions. maybe I dont understand this fully . My feelings are, that no matter how much magical focus they have as a people this would not out way the trauma and violence that humans have caused. I don't believe this is a human POV problem, and feel the elven people would not be so "alien in perspective". Other non-humans don't act so much different than man, they are different but they retain some universal similarities. I find little to indicate they would act so "alien" in behavior. Simple conditioning would imply that elves would act how I have proposed. To act otherwise it becomes hard to believe how they could have survived (thousands of years+) as long as they have with such problematic behavior. Reading the trends and wars with other humanoids seems to paint a picture of zero tolerance for races that have hurt elf kind. would they feel different about a half-goblin? By the above mebhaighl theory It would seem not (could be a adventure idea), because they have mebhaighl flowing in them. Elves seem to now hate humans more than the humanoids. (from what I have read at least the humanoids didn't win) Yet acting as If a magical aptitude is enough to welcome the half-human back seems a stretch for an explanation. I propose the comment in the main BR manual is an oversight and error. (rather than some magical sensing loop hole)

Look forward to seeing others ideas on the topic, but I like the sterile half-elf idea! thats cool. Im a bio major so I am pulled to that idea............plus adds interesting dynamic to playing half-elf's. (there can be only one)

we agree to disagree. that is fine

Sorry If It seems like Im taking the magic out of BR, just like more grounded explanations.

[geeman]

At 11:42 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I guess I don`t have whatever source people are using for this
>"mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then
>thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I
>don`t know about.

It`s not specifically stated in the BR products, but I`d suggest it
solves some otherwise untenable things that definitely are in the
published materials. For instance, it says specifically that elves
consider half-elves to be Sidhelien and welcome them fully into their
society under the description of half-elves in the Rulebook. There
are materials that counter that statement, specifically some
information in the PSo Tuarhieval, but I`d suggest even that isn`t
quite a refutation of the description in the Rulebook.

As for how elves might feel about something like a
half-elf/half-goblin were such a thing possible, I`d suggest that one
of the reasons its not possible would be the avoid having to deal
with that question to begin with... but if we assume the impossible
as a standard, then under this interpretation they would accept the
goblin/elf as fully Sidhelien just as they currently accept human/elves.

I`d suggest that much of the rest of your suggestions are very
rationale and/or reasonable explanations of how the elves would
feel... if they were human or even elves of another
setting. However, the Sidhe are not just different from humans but
from standard D&D elves, and their attitudes are in many ways "alien"
to us. Explaining exactly how those attitudes are alien is what I`m
getting at here....

Gary