Rogr Aglondier

[Sorontar]

Guys, stop making it hard. KISS [1].

The Lost can cast True Magic.
The Lost got this power from Azrai in some way.
The Lost did not originally have bloodlines.
Therefore, the Lost get their access to True Magic in some other way (see also elves, dragons).

So, Azrai did his godly voodoo on the Lost and somehow gave them the power to do the magic, but nothing else. What that voodoo was doesn't really matter because it won't change the nature of BR. The only consequence is that because they were not originally blooded, they couldn't be regents at that time and no bloodtheft could be committed against them.

They may since have become blooded.

Sorontar.

[1] Keep It Simple Stupid

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Mojczak wrote:
> Mojczak wrote:
> Well, from what I remember Azrai was supposed to have
> thaught some vos true magic before the battle. Could be
> wrong, tho.

As this is out of line with the setting conceit that true magic
requires you to be a dragon, an elf, or blooded, it is possible that
Azrai invested part of his power into his chosen before Deismaar so
that they could use true magic. He was capable of holding of a
half-dozen other gods on his own, so he was quite powerful, and could
probably have pulled this off.

Another theory is that he didn`t teach them "true magic", that is,
elven style (wizardy), but instead something else. In game terms,
they might have been clerics with the magic domain, or necromancers,
or warlocks, or *pick a class*.

They probably weren`t just "unblooded humans to whom he taught true
magic", because in the setting, it wouldn`t have worked. But it was
never explained in any book.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Green Knight]

Guys, stop making it hard. KISS [1].

The Lost can cast True Magic.
The Lost got this power from Azrai in some way.
The Lost did not originally have bloodlines.
Therefore, the Lost get their access to True Magic in some other way (see also elves, dragons).

So, Azrai did his godly voodoo on the Lost and somehow gave them the power to do the magic, but nothing else. What that voodoo was doesn't really matter because it won't change the nature of BR. The only consequence is that because they were not originally blooded, they couldn't be regents at that time and no bloodtheft could be committed against them.

They may since have become blooded.

Sorontar.

[1] Keep It Simple Stupid

"Keep it simple stupid" is also known as "Keep it bloody boring". That's why I come here, to hear (the oft silly mind you) opinions of other BR players

[bbeau22]

This is one of those things that can be left to the DM on how to proceed. Seems the information is left ambiguous on purpose. How did they cast true magic? I am sure they will never talk about it and other wizards themselves can theorize but never know for sure.

I think some of the above examples all work pretty well. Giving the lost a bloodscore of 1 would allow them to cast true magic but otherwise leave them limited on the type of influence they could hold on populations. We could even have a unique situation where they were blooded but had a score of 0. This gave them access to true magic but none of the other powers. This would allow them to blood theft and grow their power like others after Deismaar.

Since the ones listed in the books are all blooded, I would think that being blooded probably had something to do about it, but at the time since no one really understood what 'blooded' was, they might not even have known the types of things they could do until after Deismaar.

-BB

[Mojczak]

They could be taking their magic from the shadow realm, effectively giving them a "shadow" score and either represent that by the wizard class with similar feats such as the shadow weave wizard in the FR settings, or a sorcerer...?

But that topic as diverted some bit.

[geeman]

At 11:34 PM 8/12/2008, Green Knight wrote:

>I did create a set of regional feats that allowed non-scions to use
>true magic. All that was required for true magic was some sort of
>"supernatural" heirtage. So any elf, half-elf or scion could do it.
>But so could anyone with the propper feat - the one named Elfblood
>(ie. not half-elf but distantly descended from elves) was the most
>common, but there were other feats indication demonic/angelic
>heritage for example.

Out of curiosity, as a percentage of the population, how many people
do you think might have this feat? I don`t really have a problem
with it as a concept, but my concern would be that by including such
an exception to the rules regarding who can and can`t cast true magic
we might end up with an awful lot of wizards running around on
Cerilia, which would tinker with the idea that it is a "low magic" setting.

Gary

[kgauck]

They could be taking their magic from the shadow realm, effectively giving them a "shadow" score and either represent that by the wizard class with similar feats such as the shadow weave wizard in the FR settings, or a sorcerer...?

Isn't that the exact definition of a warlock?

[AndrewTall]

The relative power is certainly very different... and I do think Azrai COULD have given the Lost a bloodine (or something like it) if he chose, but he appears not to because we don't have any other indication of them doing the things one can do with a bloodline other than cast true magic.

Well, my thought is we don't have strong indications either way - bloodlines of Azrai are associated with corruption, etc, etc - but of course so would anything associated with the god such as the lost. To avoid creating a new power source for magic, or saying the lost were half elves, etc, providing them with a bloodline seems like the simplest explanation for thier magic. And, to the average joe peasant, what can one do with a bloodline beyond "magic" (in its widest sense) anyway to say otherwise in the history? a peasant doesn't see a regent spending RP, they just feel that the regent is persuasive and follow their rulers words from their natural choice...

Do we need an explanation for monstrous creatures before Deismaar, and if so should it really be a bloodline? There are already dragons, giants, undead, treants, yeti, sea monsters, giant insects, etc. in the setting that have no connection to bloodline, and they existed long before bloodlines existed. Making all those creatures a sort of layover of the process that creates awn-/ehrshegh seems like taking the process a few steps further than it was meant to go.

Not so much a layover as a precursor - they got a touch of the blood and were corrupted by it / being corrupted by Azrai infused them with a portion of his being etc - you don't need an explanation but I like using an existing mechanic to explain the monstrous abberations - I wouldn't say that minor changes like making gnolls, etc would be enough to justify a bloodline as I'm fairly sure that even Br canon would have noticed that all beast-men were blooded! So I wouldn't make any abberation blooded no, just the really big nasty ones with powers beyond the 'norm'...

How does the Lost having a bloodline explain them vanishing into the SW when Azrai died?

Azrai's connection to the shadow plane is apparently why he got dragged / fled there after Deismaar. If we have the lost and great beasts tied to azrai with a continuing deep bond (rather than an initial change that endured), then we can justify most of them being dragged along with their master. The bond being an infused bloodline avoids the need to create a second kind of bond. Of course for them to drag, they need a bond that exists before he dies, and one that is far stronger than bonds from azrai to the gorgon, rhoubhe, etc. If the great beasts / lost had a bloodline of some sort it would appear to do the trick, a minor bloodline compared to a bloodline of 1 for Azrai's various great captains would also work if you wanted to explain the prevalence of great bloodlines among other former champs - although you can use Azrai being many times stronger than the 'good gods' for that one if you prefer.

Non-gods can create bloodlines too?

Depends on what you want. I'd certainly restrict it to true bloodlines, encourage it to be Azrai only (his bloodline is notorious for corrupting and changing things) and give it a hefty RP cost - but I just plain like the idea of some of the major awnies being able to deliberately warp life and make themselves little igor's and frankensteins in a sort of echo to their long dead master. Plus of course the process gives me 'secondary bosses' for players to defeat before they get to the real McCoy, and some tough canon fodder with little need for a supporting ecosystem and viable population to support it.

Personally, I just can't buy that the Lost were too busy being power hungry and trying to win a war to create holdings and rule people. Creating holdings and ruling people is HOW one gets power and that's what allows one to win wars. Rulership isn't a diversion from power--it is the process of gaining power.

But the impact of bloodline on rulership is invisible surely? How is a king with a bloodline of 20 distinguishable to an unblooded king to a peasant? Both levy taxes, raise armies, issue decrees, etc, etc - having a bloodline would aid the Lost in conquering aduria, make ruling it more efficient justifying a larger army, etc - that doesn't sound incompatible with the (fairly skimpy) history we have of the time.

As for realm magic in comparison to the godly power--yes, that's true, but couldn't we use the same argument for the Lost being mentioned at all? Why would we mention a few true wizards when Azrai himself is performing magic?

Azrai and the gods only turned up as Deismaar I think - so generals before then would be memorable. To cast realm magic would be remembered as very powerful magic of course, but a) the lost were supposed be be very powerful at magic - mass destruction is good, but so is meteor swarm; b) actually casting realm magic in a battle is very hard outside your own turf - unless the Lost knew they would fight at Desimaar they wouldn't have sources/leylines allowing them to cast the spells; and c) we are assuming that they knew any realm magic, would Azrai have taught it to them? Would they have had time to figure out it was possible and research it?

My problem is that if they didn't have a bloodline they had to have something else - why has no-one since Deismaar found and used that something else? Why don't we have lots of 'shadow mages' running around? Lots of rich, powerful people don't have bloodlines and true magic is power - they would want it and look for ways to get it.

If the Lost's ability to cast true magic is worth mentioning, surely their ability to rule a domain would be worth mentioning, as would any of the other aspects of a bloodline.

The Lost were Azrai's generals and (I think) kings (although that could be other peoples expansions not canon). There are no aspects of a bloodline I can think of that are incompatible with being the leaders of an army, masters of a continent, and being famed for great magical powers. What bloodline attributes do you think should have been mentioned that are missing? A bloodline power is simply a spell by another name to the layman', rulership by RP or GB is simply a matter of efficiency, an awnsheghlien transformation would be lost in Azrai's general meddling and fit the reports anyway, usurpation is the only aspect of bloodlines not 'mentioned' I can think of - and I expect that Azrai kept his generals on a tight leash with usurpation if it occured at all not being something open to 'the press'.

The halfling domain lords of the SW can gain a tainted bloodline from their worship of the Cold Rider--who might be the remnant of Azrai.

Of course they could, but in that case what about modern worshipers of Azrai, Belinik or Kreisha? Can worshipers of Haelyn gain a bloodline of Anduiras if they are sufficiently pious? If the possessor has to deliberately empower the recipient it has an impact on spread of bloodlines, etc - not necessarily a good or bad impact of course, it would depend on the campaign.

However, doesn't that support the idea that the Lost didn't have an actual bloodline? It's worth noting that a few halflings have an actual bloodline, but not the Lost, some of whom appear to have gained a bloodline later through acts of bloodtheft and then become regents themselves?

Gary

Well, we only have info on 3 or 4 of the Lost (all blooded of course as they are regents), and only the magian mentions that he gained a bloodline which transformed him from undead into a living awnie - which is already somewhat far out, I'd prefer him to have been blooded before he got there from 'the west' as it avoids various other undead issues.


I find the bloodlines approach to ancient history provides a coherent explanation for some issues, and the ability to imbue a bloodline opens up some intriguing possibilities, so naturally I interpret canon (and memory of canon, not necessarily the same thing of course) to support my approach. If there is a hole a PC could exploit I'd be happy to revise my approach, but it seems fine so far.

I wonder though on the imbue point what would happen if one of the bloodlines of a non-Azrai god turned up able to imbue his faithful followers? A rush of people eager to serve and prove themselves I expect making them the immediate centre of interesting times...