Why wizards are weak

[Rowan]

Thanks, Kgauck. With regards to taxation and extortion, I was referring to the threat of magical destruction, personal or of the realm. In Anuire, at least, legal authority doesn't reside in wizards, so by old imperial order, wizards would be extorting with such threats.

Further, to hold power over others one must on occasion hold all the cards. Wizards are currently too weak to exert that kind of influence over most realms, especially when temples are ready to step in to counter them magically, and when DMs (often) don't let wizard regents simply Dominate or Geas other PCs.

I agree with your sentiments otherwise, I just don't think it's possible for most wizards to even try to do without some adjustments to the rules.

[geeman]

OK, a couple of comments regarding the relative weakness of wizards
at the domain level.

First, I don`t personally think the reliance of wizards on other
regents was intentional or, more accurately, that the rules went a
little overboard in this regard. I think wizards are meant to be
weaker in certain aspects of the domain level, so they might be more
likely to fit into the stereotype of the "court mage" that is so
common in fantasy fiction and more than a little apt for BR. If one
goes through the published materials one finds several wizard regents
described in such a way. There should be definite advantages--beyond
simple cooperation--to such a relationship in order to support this
fundamental fantasy dynamic. This dependance is almost entirely
economic, and that`s OK as a rationale, if a little base and feeble
given some of the more noble and fascinating fantasy characters upon
which such a concept is based. It`s hard to imagine Merlin hitting
up Arthur for money....

If one looks at the descriptions of the published materials there are
at least as many wizards who control source holdings that are
portrayed as being operating independently of the other regents in
the area. Some, in fact, look like they dominate those around
them. Unfortunately, the weak spot of source holders makes that hard
to justify when the game mechanics are actually applied, and in
practice playing such regents quickly runs counter to the descriptive text.

So the rules seem to have gone too far in this regard, and the game
designers appear to have realized it fairly quickly. To compensate
they added some rules that allowed powerful sources to create trade
routes to allow wizards to get some sort of monetary benefit from
their sources. However, the source trade route function is more than
a little haphazard. The idea is good, but the basic implementation
puts such trade routes in competition with ACTUAL trade routes, and
we run into problems with that kind of thing.

For nostalgic purposes, I`m going to go ahead and reiterate something
I wrote a long time ago: The Harvest Source domain action. Most
folks hated the idea, but that was way back in the days when ideas
expressed in the BR community often became as contested as the Iron
Throne, so maybe the concept will be less contentious
now. Essentially, the idea is a combination and elaboration of the
ideas for source trade routes and the way source potential in a
province is reduced when population level rises and renewed when that
population level is reduced.

Here`s the version as it more or less appears in my homebrew
document. (MP="Majesty Points" which is what this document uses to
refer to RP.)

Harvest Source
Type: Domain, Realm
Cost: 1MP, 1GB
DC: 15 see below.
Modifiers: Wisdom, elf, ranger, Wilderness Lore.

Because sources represent the untamed lands of a province, they
contain valuable raw materials. This action allows a regent to
harvest the value contained in his source holdings. In order to
harvest a source, the regent spends 1MP and 1GB to hire woodcutters,
miners, draymen or whatever is required to bring the materials to
market. Harvesting a source yields GBs as if the regent were
performing moderate taxation on a province with the same population
level as his source holding.

Harvesting a source lowers both it and the source potential of the
province one level, with the following exception. Once per year the
sources of a province may be harvested without damage. For
harvesting to have no effect on the source or source potential, the
action must take place during the Spring domain turn, when sources
naturally renew themselves. Harvesting during that period cancels
the negative effects of the action by collecting the new growth that
is generated naturally every Spring.

Unlike most other domain actions the level of the holding in the
Harvest Source action is a negative modifier on the difficulty. It
is easier to harvest larger, more abundant source holdings, so the
larger a source holding the more able the regent in charge of it is
to harvest it. Subtract the level of the source from the DC of the action.

Gary

[ericthecleric]

In a PBEM, it still makes sense for a realm ruler to work with a wizard regent, especially one run by a player, because it is courteous to do so. The realm regent will want to rule their land, as has been said above, but a good realm player (not necessarily in alignment terms) will want to establish a method for the wizard not to lose out too much on RP so that the wizard player's fun isn't ruined. For example, by helping the wizard establish another type of holding, and/or working with a third party willing to become a vassal of the wizard, and/or acquiring territory (through Create Province) and giving the wizard sole source rights there. Of course, that assumes that the wizard and realm ruler are not adversaries!

[geeman]

OK, here`s the next part of what I`d suggest for wizard regents. The
idea here is that regents control sources because it gives them
access to personal power. While in a province in which s/he controls
a source, a wizard gains the following benefits:

1. Add the source level to the spellcaster`s level for the purpose of
determining the duration, range, etc. of spells, but not spell
EFFECTS. i.e. not things like the number of dice a fireball does,
the number of magic missiles the spell generates, etc.

2. The spellcaster should get a bonus on saves against magic in
provinces in which s/he controls sources. +1 for odd source
level. i.e. +1 at level 1, +2 at level 3, +3 at level 5, etc.

3. A corresponding negative modifier to the saving throws of targets
of the spellcaster`s spells.

4. Use the source level as a bonus to skill checks having to do with
the natural environment such as handling animals, wilderness lore,
diplomacy with intelligent "monsters" in the province, etc.

Given the way the natural environment of a province rejuvenates
annually, wizards might also have access to realm spells that aid
that process. A "Replenish Source Potential" realm spell, for
example, might be used to create the effects of Spring on a province
at any time. In combination with the aforementioned "Harvest Source"
action this might be useful in place of either/both the Alchemy realm
spell and source trade routes. Personally, I think priests of Erik
(and some of Ruornil) should earn RP from either temple or source
holdings, and such a realm spell is particularly apt for them.

Another affect that wizards should have for source holdings and that
bridges the gap between the adventure and domain levels is the
following realm spell:

Link Spell
Type: Domain
Cost: Varies
Success: 10+

Spellcasters can link spells to one of their source holdings in order to make
the effects of that spell lasting. The spell a mage wishes to link cannot have
an instant duration and cannot be of higher level than the source holding
controlled by the caster in that province.

If the linked spell is cast on someone`s person or on an object, the spell
remains in effect as long as the person or item remains in the province where
the source holding is located or in a province connected by a ley line.

The source level controlled by the regent is a positive modifier on his chance
for success and the level of the spell being linked is subtracted.

Example: A mage controls a Source(5). He uses the Link Spell action
to make the
effects of the level 2 spell Magic Mouth at the center of his source
lasting, to
warn off trespassers. His chance of success is 10+2-5=7. The spell link takes
up 2 levels of the source holding, leaving 3 remaining levels
available to link additional spells.

Gary

[ryancaveney]

1. Add the source level to the spellcaster`s level for the purpose of determining the duration, range, etc. of spells, but not spell EFFECTS. i.e. not things like the number of dice a fireball does, the number of magic missiles the spell generates, etc.

I do that for all variable parameters, especially including damage dice, number of mirror images, AC bonus from armoring spells, etc. Number of spells per day, too, including ones higher-level than normal: IMC, a fifth-level wizard with a source (6) would be able to cast sixth-level spells -- but only in the province where he has a source (6). Typical sources are only level 2 or so, which gives only a one-spell-level bonus.

2. The spellcaster should get a bonus on saves against magic in provinces in which s/he controls sources. +1 for odd source level. i.e. +1 at level 1, +2 at level 3, +3 at level 5, etc. 3. A corresponding negative modifier to the saving throws of targets of the spellcaster`s spells.

Agreed, but I make it one-for-one: +3 at level 3, +7 at level 7, etc. For one thing, there are very few high-level sources. For another, I am perfectly happy to have regent wizards be vastly more powerful on their home turf, because the larger the bonus to the defender, the harder it is for a powerful wizard to expand his turf by taking it from his weaker neighbors.

Both of these changes do indeed make regent wizards much more personally powerful than non-regent wizards, but I think this is necessary in order to make up for the way in which the ability to spend 6 GB to muster a unit of knights makes a regent fighter vastly more powerful on an adventure than non-regent fighters. In fact, it's much more limited than the default fighter case, because you can travel anywhere with a unit of knights, but you need to create and rule holdings or forge ley lines before you can travel with this extra spell power.

[ryancaveney]

Your explanations make sense, but they also require a little tweaking of the storylines for BR. I was trying to create a rules system that allowed the story stuff to remain in place.

Ah, the the eternal refrain! This has always been true for every rule in BR, and many other games as well. It is very difficult to make most published backstories hang together unless you assume that no one in the past ever thought like a PC. =)

For instance, there isn't any mention in the story of wizard regents controlling realm rulers or even other domain rulers as you suggest--though that would be a very interesting modification to the background.

I think they prefer to do it quietly, so no one talks about it. I also think it is necessary to explain how anything Ruins of Empire says about the domains of regent wizards can possibly be true.

the current background doesn't give wizards much in the way of worldly influence or gold on their own

How long does the current background last in your campaigns? Even in the computer game, the first priority of every province ruler is to get the local guild, temple and source holders to become vassals (or at least rigidly loyal allies), or else eradicate them if they won't play ball. The whole point of being a wizard is that you have decided that casting spells is your favorite way of solving any problem you may encounter. Wizards have immense worldly influence, but it's expressed by negotiating with people about what spells you will or won't cast to help or harm them, not by spending RP on the Agitate action.

Good wizards aren't going to go around extorting money and controlling minds, either

Well, *nice* wizards won't, but then no nice person should ever stay regent of anything for very long. If you're actually good at being a regent wizard, mind control is a necessary part of the job description, even if it's only to convince the marauding barbarian hordes to go invade someone else's realm this year. Kenneth has already covered extortion quite well. The morality of a regent as a regent has to be different from that of individual people living individual lives, since the regent is responsible for protecting the safety and well-being of all his people from possible aggressors. It's like spying. The whole point of being a spy is to serve your country by convincing other people to betray theirs. Everyone knows it's not a nice thing to do, but James Bond is a hero because the people to whom he does evil acts (robbery and murder, in particular) are planning to do much worse things to many more of Her Majesty's subjects, so in the greater scheme of things his individually bad actions are far less bad in total than the alternative.

When it comes to the rules, though, when you put yourselves in the shoes of a player wizard (and the possibility of multiple player wizards in a game with 20+ players), do you still really think it's as flexible and fun to play them as any other domain?

Personally, yes. Court wizard is the role I've most often played and most often enjoyed in PBEMs. I want to cast interesting magic and not have to worry so much about gold or diplomacy, so I am delighted to work for a sensible ruler who understands that keeping me in plenty of GBs for spell research is the most flexible and cost-effective way to make his realm stronger in both war and peace. I'd much rather play a landless source regent than a landless temple or guild regent. After all, anyone can obtain holdings of any kind, and every class derives equal financial benefit from guilds and temple holdings, but source holdings are utterly useless to everyone except wizards.

[geeman]

At 12:47 PM 1/9/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>Add the source level to the spellcaster`s level for the purpose of
>>determining the duration, range, etc. of spells, but not spell
>>EFFECTS. i.e. not things like the number of dice a fireball does,
>>the number of magic missiles the spell generates, etc.
>
>I do that for all variable parameters, especially including damage
>dice, number of mirror images, AC bonus from armoring spells,
>etc. Number of spells per day, too, including ones higher-level
>than normal: IMC, a fifth-level wizard with a source (6) would be
>able to cast sixth-level spells -- but only in the province where he
>has a source (6). Typical sources are only level 2 or so, which
>gives only a one-spell-level bonus.

I wanted to avoid making source holding levels actual caster levels,
hence the prohibition on spell effects, but that`s ultimately a
pretty debatable issue for the reason(s) you point out. Worst case
scenario, though, is that someone could effectively have a +7 to +9
to their character level, which might be a problem for some
folks. The difference between a few magic missiles shouldn`t be a
problem, but many dice of damage from a Fireball from a 5th level
wizard might be a bit much....

Allowing spells per day to increase based on source holding level
seems like taking the idea a step too far as that`s a very personal
level of power, but that aside doesn`t it potentially create a sort
of bookkeeping problem too? I mean, I`d hate to deal with players
having to pick and choose what spells they had every time they passed
from one province to another based on what holdings they
had. Planescape used to have that sort of effect for clerics as they
passed through the planes as they went further from their "home"
plane. I found those effects really difficult and annoying to keep
track of, so they were quickly dropped when I DM`d in that
setting. Did anything that come up?

>------------ QUOTE ----------
>2. The spellcaster should get a bonus on saves against magic in
>provinces in which s/he controls sources. +1 for odd source
>level. i.e. +1 at level 1, +2 at level 3, +3 at level 5, etc. 3. A
>corresponding negative modifier to the saving throws of targets of
>the spellcaster`s spells.
>-----------------------------
>
>Agreed, but I make it one-for-one: +3 at level 3, +7 at level 7,
>etc. For one thing, there are very few high-level sources. For
>another, I am perfectly happy to have regent wizards be vastly more
>powerful on their home turf, because the larger the bonus to the
>defender, the harder it is for a powerful wizard to expand his turf
>by taking it from his weaker neighbors.

Did you also give opponents a penalty to saving throws?

>Both of these changes do indeed make regent wizards much more
>personally powerful than non-regent wizards, but I think this is
>necessary in order to make up for the way in which the ability to
>spend 6 GB to muster a unit of knights makes a regent fighter vastly
>more powerful on an adventure than non-regent fighters. In fact,
>it`s much more limited than the default fighter case, because you
>can travel anywhere with a unit of knights, but you need to create
>and rule holdings or forge ley lines before you can travel with this
>extra spell power.

Even with all these additions I had trouble convincing anyone in a BR
campaign to take on source holdings. Of course, playing at the
adventure level might make the wizard`s access to the domain level
problematic, so YMMV.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Would your perspective change, however, if you were playing a wizard regent? My argument is based on the observation that, especially if the focus of a game is realm-level play (such as in PBEMs), it's just much harder and not as rewarding to play a wizard. You're much more limited than any other regent type; hence my suggestions to help fix that problem and make them more fun to play.

Nope that is where it came from.

When running a wizard regent in a PBEM game I noticed that those 2 factors were what specifically limited my character (far too few actions and couldn't generate enough GB, that is why the Alchemy spell should be "revised" - since it should be the primary means of a wizard regent generating income, other than via "stipends" from the landed regent).

Whenever I play any RPG (not PC game) I try to work as a team. It does nothing but frustrate me as a player when one player has his PC "do everything" and do it better than everyone else.

I find that things work better when one character focuses on a few things while another focuses on a few others. That way (with a good GM) the area of focus switches between players so that each gets the spotlight at different times.

I personally love playing characters who do not stand on their own and instead rely on the help of their "friends". I find those game much more enjoyable then the ones where everyone is out for themself (might as well play a PVP computer game for that matter).

[Rowan]

"When running a wizard regent in a PBEM game I noticed that those 2 factors were what specifically limited my character (far too few actions and couldn't generate enough GB"

And you liked that?

I don't think wizards should always be turning lead into gold. That has always been considered a rare thing, and I think it should need to be researched and remain rare, even for wizards, not just sort of a wizard's money factory.

I find it much better to explain that the very components necessary for their research and spells should be found in provinces with source levels (accounting for 1/3GB per source level). Perhaps these shouldn't even be able to be sold, and should only be able to be used for research and spellcasting.

The way I see it, the modifications I've suggested are specifically to allow regents more than ever to focus on what they do best--research, cast spells, compete with other wizard regents, etc. They still are very poor at all the actions that every other holding and province ruler can take (no Agitate, Espionage, Trade Routes, Contestation, Mustering of Troops, etc.).

It seems to me that even under the modified rules I've suggested to free up some actions and some money, wizards still make little enough income and have little enough impact on the world that they need some form of cooperation and coexistence to thrive. They still complement other domain rulers; they can't just do everything themselves.

[irdeggman]

"When running a wizard regent in a PBEM game I noticed that those 2 factors were what specifically limited my character (far too few actions and couldn't generate enough GB"

And you liked that?

Well I told you what I thought should be done based on that didn't I?

The big problem with the number of actions is that any action involving a source must be done by the wizard himself - this to me is a problem. If the Wizard's Lt could "freely" use his source then this allows the wizard regent to spend his actions in either research or adventure (which are most likely the 2 most common none source related actions being done, other than diplomacy - which to me is probably the most important domain action and the one used the least to effect). In general a wizard shouldn't need a court, and if his Lt is allowed to "freely" use his source (but only one person could use it a time) this would most likely free up sufficient actions. The "freely" part could be considered part of the "training" for the Lt and included in that sort of original arrangement some kind of pact-bond betwen the two.

I don't think wizards should always be turning lead into gold. That has always been considered a rare thing, and I think it should need to be researched and remain rare, even for wizards, not just sort of a wizard's money factory.

I find it much better to explain that the very components necessary for their research and spells should be found in provinces with source levels (accounting for 1/3GB per source level). Perhaps these shouldn't even be able to be sold, and should only be able to be used for research and spellcasting.

And yet as is the case with most spell research the cost is mostly in acquiring old tomes and related texts and not in actual "materials".

Research times for realm spells do seem a tad long though, even though I think the cost is still about right, maybe a "-1" to the time, minimum of 1 month. IMO realm spells are akin to epic spells only usuable by non-epic characters.

The way I see it, the modifications I've suggested are specifically to allow regents more than ever to focus on what they do best--research, cast spells, compete with other wizard regents, etc. They still are very poor at all the actions that every other holding and province ruler can take (no Agitate, Espionage, Trade Routes, Contestation, Mustering of Troops, etc.).

It seems to me that even under the modified rules I've suggested to free up some actions and some money, wizards still make little enough income and have little enough impact on the world that they need some form of cooperation and coexistence to thrive. They still complement other domain rulers; they can't just do everything themselves.

The "structures" are more like wondrous structures an no other regent gets structures so specified in the rules to aid in realm management - I'd keep them that way. Use the Wondrous Structures rule to cover these things - so they work fine pretty much as written except use the rules for building to cover them, IMO. I am not that found of structures that grant "free" actions though - things have a way of getting out of hand when this is introduced, especially since player's of other regent types will invariably start to clamour for something similar (it's just basic human nature to do that) - and thus starts the nuclear proliferation effect.


One of the big problems with the domain action system presently is the increased importance of GB and decreased importance of RP. That is something that people have commented on before - to increase the effect that RP has on domain actions.

So I could see allowing a source regent to use RP instead of GB (to an extent) for most source-related actions. I still think that a minimum of 1 GB should be spent on materials for any realm spell though (no RP exchange for this material cost).

One of the other things that should be done, IMO, is to allow a source regent to apply his source holding levels for or against any rule province actions - this is a change I would make and strongly suggest for anyone running a game. It is a way of having the land work for or against development. Basically the rule province action as written in the BRCS is too over powered.