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  1. #21
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    This is one time that I agree almost 100% with Gary {put it down on yur calendar folks to my knowledge that has pretty much never happened}

    I think the same reason that elves have such a strong pull towards "individuality" and "personal freedom" is the same reason that they just can't quite get to where the other races can in "true devotion".

    This is something that is "hard wired" into their very essence and was since the beginning.
    Duane Eggert

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    pretty much suggests that both were a creation of the land
    So you're saying Anduiras was really just an ELF with lots of xp? This could be interesting... =)

  3. #23
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaspK_FOG View Post
    As for the Sie, I beg to differ: you have a way more powerful being than them (only the Seelie Queen is comparably powerful to deific powers) that also predated them and which were very, very different by all means; while similar, the gods were more powerful than all other creatures, and certainly not "bound spirits." It is imperative to realise that these "spirits" (i.e. the gods) where more like separated in form from the land rather than bound or created.
    The Seelie Queen is the last Sie - while she may have been the strongest of the Sie as well, her strength suggests that the Sie as a people were comparable in type of power even if short in raw power (with some not being that short at all). Both gods and Sie spring from the same source (the dual world of Aebrynis and the Spirit World), both have strong innate magic, great power over the seeming, etc - I'm seeing more similarities than differences to be honest and this view explains the complete lack of interest the Sie and later elves have in worship - they know that these 'gods' are simply other spirits that draw strength from their followers and then lend some back in return rather than being some sort of 'mystical superior beings' who are worthy of absolute obedience and devotion.

    This does of course also depend on how you see the gods - are they incarnate self aware beings of physical form, or immaterial spirits? Can they shift between the two perhaps needing to take physical form to focus their full power in a small area (i.e. at Deismaar) while able to act only by granting power to others while dispersed (i.e. a 'normal state in which they empower clerics)?

    Personally I prefer to see the gods as having died at Deismaar and Anduiras et al simply being vaporised at ground zero; the modern priests simply tap into a faith-powered well which no longer has an incarnate awareness empowered by it. The elves therefore do not worship simply because none of the ancient gods favoured them and the 'new gods' are merely a human mis-interpretation of their own pooled power. This has the added advantage of removing the 'big brother' effect on the various priesthoods and thus encouraging ambition and deception in the ranks.

    A more canon view - as expressed by others - is that elves simply cannot 'give themselves up' and utterly subjugate themselves to another - even to a god. They can admire gods, ally with them, etc but the bone-deep servitude required for worship is anathema to them due to an instinctive reliance on their sense of self, and love of personal freedom, etc. It is also possible that they follow non-personified faiths which fulfill their spiritual needs whilst rendering worship of a god unnecessary.

  4. #24
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Canonically speaking, no, the gods are not the same as any fey creature, even in Birthright; rather, a fey creature (i.e. the last and most powerful of them all, the Seelie Queen) can be of like power, but even she is not as close as one could be. For one thing, deities can grant spells, have beyond-epic powers, and more; I can understand that one's liking to religious matters can surely make him choose a diverting path, but I'd like to focus on the given material, not run a philosophical debate on the nature of deities and the religions that worship them, etc.

    Birthright is close to the concept of the immortals of D&D (not D&D as a game, but D&D "1e" without the "Advanced" part; think Rules Encyclopedia), but, instead of the sponsorship of an elder power, you have blood power and the like.

    Now imagine this for just a moment: as far as we know, the powers of the former gods were dispersed in the people, granting them their connection to the land; while the destruction of the non-evil human gods turned their champions into an equal number of new gods and Azrai got to give off 3 new divine powers (including the Cold Rider), there's a whole lot of people who got various bloodlines at that point; and we are talking in the dozens, if not hundreds, here! Considering how the champions-turned-gods are more powerful than both the Gorgon and the Seelie Queen, and the number of abominations and scions that roam the land, isn't it immediately apparent how much more powerful the former gods were?

  5. #25
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    Spirituality, death, belief

    Whatever the explanation, it seems there is a consensus that elves cannot draw divine power from worship of the gods or use divine realm spells with temple holdings (though I have seen arguments that the temple holding "slot" could be occupied by other elven community-based creations that simply don't operate the same way or power divine realm spells).

    I think it is more interesting to consider what Sidhelien Spirituality could consist of without the gods. This may go beyond the canon, but work within its constraints.

    For instance, the elemental creation of the Sidhe need not be considered false; perhaps the Sie were formed from the elements plus the spirit and Seeming. The Sundering merely left the elves in Aebrynis more bound to the strict natural laws and more physical and elemental in nature than the Seelie left in the Faerie Realm.

    There is a void in the canon as relates to elven death. Immortal beings would fear death tremendously if they believed it was a complete end to an existence that otherwise would continue forever, and yet, though the elves do seem to see death as more tragic and unnatural than humans do, they do not shy away from conflict.

    This leads me to believe that there is an elven belief in an afterlife. Reincarnation is a possibility, but there is no hint of it anywhere in source material, and that's a belief that should have some pretty direct impacts on elven life and culture to make it distinct from that of humans.

    The best I can do to reconcile the canon and not create too new a concept for the elves is that, upon death, the elven spirit finds its way back into the Faerie Realm where it seeks out its other half, the Seelie nature. The Seelie creature, presumably, can also die. It might take both immortal beings to die, then the separated halves to discover each other and reunite, to result in final passage to the afterlife (which could take many millenia, rather fitting for the elven time frame and discomfort with death).

    The Sie could presumably die, too; whatever happened to them after death would seem naturally to happen to reunited Sidhe and Seelie spirits. Perhaps passage to another existence forever separated from Aebrynis and the Shadow World? After all, the cosmology does not have a clear creation or reason for the existence of Aebrynis and the Shadow World. It could bear the idea of some other level of existence or ultimate mode of creation fairly readily, as long as this didn't have an impact on living folk. It would also preclude resurrection of elves that have mended their torn spiritual natures and passed on.

    Off that point but still regarding spirituality: It stands to reason that an immortal race has very strong oral tradition and very well-preserved concepts of any spiritual or creation ideas. It also seems evident that beings with such time on their hands could be very philosophical. I expect the elves have more well-developed philosophies, then, than any other race.

  6. #26
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    There is a void in the canon as relates to elven death. Immortal beings would fear death tremendously if they believed it was a complete end to an existence that otherwise would continue forever, and yet, though the elves do seem to see death as more tragic and unnatural than humans do, they do not shy away from conflict.
    Now here is where I would disagree.

    To me elves think that "death" is a very natural thing. But not in the same way has other races. Like everything else "death" just happens - only not from "natural causes". I think in Great Heart there was a discussion of elves just walking away from the "living world" when they felt it was "time".

    So elves do not "fear" death, but do see it as "tragic" when not "willed" - since any loss of an elf diminishes the "community". But when one "chooses" death, it is honored because it was an individual choice.

    This leads me to believe that there is an elven belief in an afterlife. Reincarnation is a possibility, but there is no hint of it anywhere in source material, and that's a belief that should have some pretty direct impacts on elven life and culture to make it distinct from that of humans.
    Interesting, but I have a difficult time with elves "imagining" anything other than the "here and now" though. It is all tied to that hard-wired individuality thing.

    The best I can do to reconcile the canon and not create too new a concept for the elves is that, upon death, the elven spirit finds its way back into the Faerie Realm where it seeks out its other half, the Seelie nature. The Seelie creature, presumably, can also die. It might take both immortal beings to die, then the separated halves to discover each other and reunite, to result in final passage to the afterlife (which could take many millenia, rather fitting for the elven time frame and discomfort with death).
    Per Blood Spawn, when an elf is born a seelie faerie is too and there are allusions to something bad happening if the two halves meet. I would make a connection based on the text and their inherent parts of the same whole that if one died so did the other half.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Immortal beings would fear death tremendously if they believed it was a complete end to an existence that otherwise would continue forever, and yet, though the elves do seem to see death as more tragic and unnatural than humans do, they do not shy away from conflict.
    This is one of the reasons I think there must be some form of Sidhelien reincarnation, since otherwise their risk-aversion would be too great for them to play the role in Cerilia that I consider their due. It also influenced a hypothesis I've had that most "elves" in Cerilia, or at least nearly all of the ones encountered by humans, are in fact half-elves, who will eventually die (and are thus safer to risk), rather than immortal true elves. In any case, it certainly implies, as many posters here have concluded, that elven armies should consist almost entirely of summoned creatures, charmed captives and constructs -- the Sidhelien should never risk themselves in direct battle, unless they are so individually powerful (e.g., Rhoubhe) that battle is no longer any danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    This leads me to believe that there is an elven belief in an afterlife. Reincarnation is a possibility, but there is no hint of it anywhere in source material, and that's a belief that should have some pretty direct impacts on elven life and culture to make it distinct from that of humans.
    I think it's reasonably implied by the source material. For one thing, as I and others have said before, inherent pass without trace, walking up 45-degree slopes covered in ice with no speed penalty, agelessness, never sleeping, etc., very strongly imply that the elves are in fact nature spirits more than physical beings. Yes, they have flesh and blood, but it seems to me that they are no more killed by destruction of their physical forms than their elemental siblings are killed when the duration of the summoning spell expires. I see Sidhelien bodies as mere outward manifestations of their spirits, to which they are tied more by habit than necessity. I think that when elves' bodies are destroyed, their spirits are released to roam the elemental and material planes, with their consciousness intact. They can return after some time as new elves, as other natural/faerie creatures (treants, for example) if they prefer for a while, or as the result of elemental summoning spells. For this reason, I give elves a bonus on elemental conjuration (they're not commanding unwilling extraplanar creatures, they're asking favors from relatives who are spending a few millennia on sabbatical from Cerilia) and advise their opponents not to summon elementals, lest they change sides to join their elven kin.


    Ryan

  8. #28
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    irdeggman schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4096
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    > There is a void in the canon as relates to elven death. Immortal beings would fear death tremendously if they believed it was a complete end to an existence that otherwise would continue forever, and yet, though the elves do seem to see death as more tragic and unnatural than humans do, they do not shy away from conflict.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Now here is where I would disagree.
    >
    > To me elves think that "death" is a very natural thing. But not in the same way has other races. Like everything else "death" just happens - only not from "natural causes". I think in Great Heart there was a discussion of elves just walking away from the "living world" when they felt it was "time".
    >
    > So elves do not "fear" death, but do see it as "tragic" when not "willed" - since any loss of an elf diminishes the "community". But when one "chooses" death, it is honored because it was an individual choice.
    In the novel Great Heart sidhelien afterlife is very different. After
    the book I listened to the song "Staiway to heaven" again, with the
    picture in my mind of the stairway that the dead sidhelien warriors had
    to take and shied away from to become captives in the glen where the
    shadowgate opened.

  9. #29
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    ryancaveney schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4096
    > ryancaveney wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > Immortal beings would fear death tremendously if they believed it was a complete end to an existence that otherwise would continue forever, and yet, though the elves do seem to see death as more tragic and unnatural than humans do, they do not shy away from conflict.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > This is one of the reasons I think there must be some form of Sidhelien reincarnation, since otherwise their risk-aversion would be too great for them to play the role in Cerilia that I consider their due. It also influenced a hypothesis I`ve had that most "elves" in Cerilia, or at least nearly all of the ones encountered by humans, are in fact half-elves, who will eventually die (and are thus safer to risk), rather than immortal true elves. In any case, it certainly implies, as many posters here have concluded, that elven armies should consist almost entirely of summoned creatures, charmed captives and constructs -- the Sidhelien should never risk themselves in direct battle, unless they are so individually powerful (e.g., Rhoubhe) that battle is no longer any danger.
    >
    Elven sissys and cowards? That opinion I do not share. The gheallie
    Sidhe is as much mounted cavalry as any human knight and the sidhelien
    army units do exist.

    Being immortal and even having no afterlife seems so horrible because we
    can?t understand both as both mortal beings that (most of us) do believe
    in some sort of afterlife. Following your conclusion the Soviet forces
    or those of any atheistec state should have been very reluctant to risk
    their lifes in battle because without god they had no afterlife... ;-)

  10. #30
    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    I totally agree with ConjurerDragon here: the whole way you concluded that they either believed in some sort of afterlife (which thus had to be true, and not just a belief) or they would be "pansies" instead seems ultimately flawed to me...

    Another example includes agnostics: does being an agnostic, who simply declares that you have no specific belief and just live your life, mean that you would never risk your life? That's simply absurd. Does adding to that the probability of being nigh immortal simply make you reluctant to act? For all I know, if there's one thing coming with age, it is any of these four: defiance, self-esteem, stubborness, and wisdom. As far as I know, none of these traits point to "letting others do as they please for the sake of my skin."

    Furthermore, no, there's no indication that the "elements" played any particular role in the creation of the Sie; in fact, this points out to one very, very peculiar thing about the Sidhelien, but one very well known to those who study legends and myths: since they lack any sort of knowledge of their past before the "split," it seems that the elder elves either lied to all of them, to themselves, or are no longer alive. No matter how ironic it seems, the longer-lived race of the whole world (apart from the Seelie fairies, the giants, and the dragons, all of whom are entirely anti-record-keeping, if you catch my drift) has next to no understanding of their creation.

    On another note, I have to repeat myself: the following races - the original deities (question: including the humanoid ones?), dragons, giants, Sie - were created from the once in ages past one world, neither Aebrynis, nor Shadow World, neither the Seeming alone. Back then, all was as one. We don't even know whether we could even make any relevant talk about spirits at that point. As a very similar discussion on the nature of souls, are these spirits a creation or a manifestation? To impose the latter as a default, even, or that the elves have no soul simply because they do not worship some deity is, again, a peculiar and ultimately unfounded suggestion.

    Does this mean that a human of our world, where the existence of natural spirits of both kinds (created and manifested) are believed in by thousands of people, who does not believe in a god must have a spirit instead of a soul? Please, do not make any sort of suggestion of a philosophical bent that not only is axiomatic, but also unfounded in its essence: the concept of this discussion is not to present every possibility, especially those to our liking; rather, we are trying to divine what we can from what we have.

    I believe that it would be brilliant if we had a statement from Richard Baker, but I don't think he meant to do one of those before, and I don't know if he will now. If anyone knows how to contact him, feel free to do so.

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