Sidhelien Spirituality

[irdeggman]

Has there ever been a discussion or effective answer as to why there are no elven gods now?

There were enough humans, dwarves, gnolls, and goblins at Deismmar to ensure the creation of new gods from each species. Surely there must have been enough elves close enough to the epicenter to also absorb enough divine power to rise to godhood.

Have I missed an explanation somewhere in the source material, or was this issue merely glossed over?

Thanks
Joe

The new gods (only human by the way) were created to replace the "old" gods and the ones who became gods were those who most exemplified the old gods - who gave up their essence in the battle.

No new demi-human gods were created at all.

The humanoid gods were always there and are not new.

[ConjurerDragon]

jdpb1 schrieb:
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> jdpb1 wrote:
> Has there ever been a discussion or effective answer as to why there are no elven gods now?
>
> There were enough humans, dwarves, gnolls, and goblins at Deismmar to ensure the creation of new gods from each species. Surely there must have been enough elves close enough to the epicenter to also absorb enough divine power to rise to godhood.
>
> Have I missed an explanation somewhere in the source material, or was this issue merely glossed over?
>
Those that ascended to become the new gods were the Champions of the old
gods and during the battle not only physically but also from their
alignment closest to them.

The sidhelien started fighting for Azrai but then turned against him so
none of the sidhelien was the champion of any god.
The only exception would be Rhuobhe - but only Raisin, Bellynick and
Kristall are mentioned as champions of Azrai.

[ryancaveney]

We do know that they don't worship the new gods, but we also know that they do not seem to have ever worshipped even the patrons of these gods when they were still mortals. So we can be certain that it's not a matter of the once-mortal nature of them that distanced the Sidhelien from worship.

I don't think the second sentence necessarily follows from the first. In my personal opinion, the fact that the Sidhelien adamantly ignore both the pre- and post-Deismaar gods identically is a strong reason to suppose that both sets of gods were equally once-mortal and non-deserving of worship. The elves were there, so they should know. This is one of the ways in which immortality drastically changes society -- they don't need history books to tell them what happened thousands of years ago, because there are Sidhelien still living who have eyewitness memories of the time. What the other races consider "the distant mists of time" and have reduced to myth and legend, many of the elves consider "back when I worked at my previous job."

I don't they view the gods as lesser to any extent, though: in fact, I think they simply don't see the point in worshipping them. Much like how they cannot abide to the rigidity that lawful alignments lend themselves to, so can they not have any sort of faith in a divine aspect of quite about anything.

This is the Discworld wizard approach. Pratchett says something along the lines of, "wizards don't feel it necessary to believe in gods the way most people don't feel it necessary to believe in tables. That is, they can be useful for putting things on and you can hurt yourself if you bump into them, but no one goes around saying, ``oh, Great Table, without which we are as naught.''" I am amused by the idea, but in Cerilia I much prefer the idea that the elves are right and everyone else is wrong -- IMO, the Sidhelien don't worship gods because there aren't any gods to worship, and what's more they never worshipped any gods because there never were any gods to worship. IMC, they were there before the so-called "gods" arrived, so they know that Anduiras, Azrai, et al. were all just latecomer interlopers (albeit long-lived and very powerful ones, but not gods) who duped the credulous non-elves into worshipping them.

After all, if the ever-mutable land is like a mother to you, nurturing and providing and exciting and thrilling, what reason do you have to turn to some other external force that you have so little to relate to? For one thing, we don't know how the Sie were created, but the evidence shows that, unlike the dwarves, the gods might have had just an indirect role in their creation, or even none at all, both being yet another creation of the land.

If for some reason I were to be forced (at gunpoint?) to accept that there are gods in Cerilia who are worth worshipping (for non-elves, at least), I would fall back on this position. In fact, it's not all that far from my preferred one, in that this method also allows Sidhelien society to be *older* than the gods who created humans.


Ryan

[jdpb1]

No new demi-human gods were created at all.

The humanoid gods were always there and are not new.

Ahhhh . . . makes sense. . .

Thanks

Joe

[RaspK_FOG]

Ryan, the Blood Spawn book builds on what we already know and pretty much suggests that both were a creation of the land; in fact, it seems almost certain that the elves were somewhat late compared to the gods and dragons (i.e. according to their "power levels" and the text, it's almost certain that they appeared in the following order: the deities, short after the dragons, and the giants and elves at roughly the same time), and the goblins, dwarves and whatnot were probably created by some of the deities at roughly the same time as the giants and elves.

This notion is further backed by the fact that none of the elder gods were simply ignored by the Sie or the Sidhelien; rather, they did not draw them any (which is what I failed to convey earlier: the Sie simply never felt any "pull" from the elder gods).


Another matter that is important: I thought of writing an article on how dragons and elves would cast spells in Aebrynnis; who would be interested?

[AndrewTall]

One question that comes to my mind is the origin of the gods as much as the elves. If both are formed from the original dual-land of Aebrynis and the Shadow World and both are innately part of the magic of the world then why would the elves worship the gods? Unlike lumbering mortal humans, etc the gods are not luminous beings beyond the ken of elves, they are simply other spirits taken form - an elf would no more worship a god then we would worship an elephant, whale, etc. (Of course some primitive cultures have worshiped such beasts but that's a separate belief issue)

This was truer for the Sie than it is for modern elves, but the perception could still be for elves that the gods are simply great spirits with powerful abilities and an ability to shift between Aebrynis and the shadow World with ease. An elf could easily respect the gods power - and possibly form an alliance with a god - but the blind faith that the god is somehow 'beyond' the elf or suchlike necessary for religion would be utterly counter-intuitive to the elf since the god is so innately similar. The human sees a miracle, the elf sees a skilled manipulation of the seeming coupled with great strength - and quite possibly has the power to perform the same on a smaller scale.

Could an elven god arise? Perhaps if Rhoubhe gained sufficient strength? They might gain strength and power similar to the existing gods, but I think they would have a very different relationship to other elves than the human gods do to their followers - would an elf worship them - or merely respect them as they would a king or great wizard?

[geeman]

At 10:57 AM 12/19/2007, irdeggman wrote:

>The new gods (only human by the way) were created to replace the
>"old" gods and the ones who became gods were those who most
>exemplified the old gods - who gave up their essence in the battle.
>
>No new demi-human gods were created at all.
>
>The humanoid gods were always there and are not new.

There have been at least two new gods created since Deismaar (and
maybe more if we consider the possible demi-god status of a few
awnsheghlien) which leads me to suspect that the creation of gods,
even in a supposedly magic-rare setting BR in which the gods
supposedly have a "hands-off" approach to events, isn`t all that
difficult. The lack of elven gods is, therefore, all the more
stark. There are certainly amazingly powerful elvens, but no elf has
ever, in his already immortal life, risen to the power that other
Cerilian races have....

Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

The "newly created gods" are, actually, the offspring of two human deities [who happened to be mortal, got ascended, and then got children together (Haelyn + Nesirie = Cuiraécen; Avani + Erik = Laerme; Ruornil + Sera = Eloéle)].

As for the Sie, I beg to differ: you have a way more powerful being than them (only the Seelie Queen is comparably powerful to deific powers) that also predated them and which were very, very different by all means; while similar, the gods were more powerful than all other creatures, and certainly not "bound spirits." It is imperative to realise that these "spirits" (i.e. the gods) where more like separated in form from the land rather than bound or created.

[Cargaroth]

I find it an interesting debate as to whether elves CANNOT worship a divine being, and gain the benefits thereby, or CHOOSE not to worship anyone (which brings it back to the spirits vs. souls debate). The Absolute prohibition of elven clerics and druidsi in the BR Rulebook tends to suggest the former in my mind. It makes a great deal of sense that immortal elves would choose not to worship human gods, particularly those who were once mortal, possibly even with a particular elf's lifetime. But to presume that no elf at any time within the history of thier race has ever encountered a God-like being worthy or worship seems a bit rich to me. Particularly when divine magic would have been very helpful in holding off the human invasion of the last two thousand years. Certainly the alignment restrictions of elves is an insufficient argument as there are many humans and other races with equally chaotic natures who worship and become priests quite readily (e.g. worshipers of Eloele and Sera).

Personally I tend to believe that the rule was put in place in order to create a degree of game balence as elves were the only non-blooded characters able to cast wizard spells. Also, their "faerie-like" quality adds to their mistique, unlike elves from Forgotten Realms or even Krynn who have become almost common place. As such I find the spirits vs. souls explaination neater and more easily defended, particularly if you don't want players making their characters the "exception" to the rule.

[geeman]

At 08:22 PM 12/19/2007, Cargaroth wrote:

>I find it an interesting debate as to whether elves CANNOT worship a
>divine being, and gain the benefits thereby, or CHOOSE not to
>worship anyone (which brings it back to the spirits vs. souls debate).

One bit of clarification I`d like to indulge in for a moment:
"Worship" isn`t really a descriptive enough term here in that I think
it is possible for an elf to believe in the gods, attend services,
ally him/erself with the beliefs associated with the gods, etc. but
still not be able to take that worship to the level that humans (and
others) are able to by becoming priests, and there is something about
elves themselves that prevent them from transferring the energy of
their adoration through the medium of temple holdings to create
RP. They are incapable of doing either of those things. An elf
could ally himself with believers, call himself a believer, but there
is something missing from that elf that prevents him from being able
to express that allegiance as worship in the way that other Cerilian races can.

>The Absolute prohibition of elven clerics and druidsi in the BR
>Rulebook tends to suggest the former in my mind. It makes a great
>deal of sense that immortal elves would choose not to worship human
>gods, particularly those who were once mortal, possibly even with a
>particular elf`s lifetime. But to presume that no elf at any time
>within the history of thier race has ever encountered a God-like
>being worthy or worship seems a bit rich to me.

The gods used to walk around on Aebrynis, and the elves associated
themselves with Azrai pretty closely for a while, so they definitely
have encountered them.

>Personally I tend to believe that the rule was put in place in order
>to create a degree of game balence as elves were the only
>non-blooded characters able to cast wizard spells. Also, their
>"faerie-like" quality adds to their mistique, unlike elves from
>Forgotten Realms or even Krynn who have become almost common place.
>As such I find the spirits vs. souls explaination neater and more
>easily defended, particularly if you don`t want players making their
>characters the "exception" to the rule.

There is a balance aspect of it, sure. It`s more colour than
balance, though, since they could have ignored it entirely along with
any other aspect of the racial restrictions had they wanted to go for
a more inclusive and "balanced" feel to the setting.

Gary