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  1. #101
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    Labor could be a "tax" for the elves, but again, I doubt elves would tax this to the extent that humans do, so their effective "productivity" would be less. That is, more elves population-wise would be needed to generate the same taxation "income" that an equivalent number of humans would bring.

    "What is taxation but a cut from the labor of those who work?"

    My point was that, while the fewer elven goods might be more valuable, they typically aren't traded in great numbers. Therefore the serviceable output of their goods is no greater. You're not taxing the gold an elf gets from his higher quality product, because he's not getting gold for it, typically. In this way, you can't take a "cut" from the value of the product. That's why I made the distinction between guilds/trade routes and province income.

    This is all just opinion based on the flavor of the game to try to get a grasp on elven populations. I think it just gives some weight to the idea that elven populations could actually be just fine and pretty high, despite and irreflective of low province levels. Certainly there are still far fewer elves than humans, but I'm quite skeptical of the occasional reference I've seen in various places of the BR fanworld that there may only be a few thousand or even just a few tens of thousands of elves left.

  2. #102
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Taxes as coin is a modern thing. Most taxes in the middle ages were in kind. So our excellent elf craftsmen would be producing super-valuable goods for the whole of elf-kind. Marvelous swords, a few magic items, magnificent armor, upkeep of the thorn throne, the crystal palace, diplomacy with the forest itself, all of these could be products of elf labor rendered as a service to all of elf kind, in the name of the person of the ruler if you like.

    To touch on Beruin's comment that, "I can't really see an elven ruler taxing his subjects like a human king would," I would point to conjectural or small scale political experiments writ large. Human government requires an amount of coersion, and in the background of all human states is the leviathan (Hobbes). Elf realms may be entirely non-coersive, as certain libertarians or anarchists imagine. The reason these political forms don't work for humans on a large scale is that humans don't easily form vast cooperative enterprises based on ideology. We lack ideological agreement, so attempts to gain ideological agreement turn coercive. It turns out its less coercive to get behavioral participation than it is to reach into the hearts and minds of men and impose ideological agreement. Western society came to this conclusion at the end of the Reformation as attempts to force conversion ended and governments began to grope towards tolerance.

    Elves however, might already have ideological agreement, and so lack the need for a lawful disposition (of either the people or the state) to achieve large scale cooperation. Further, since a natural unity of action is stronger than a coerced unity, it could be weakened in other ways if the DM wants with room still to produce similar game effects as a coerced human population.

    Its a truism that one enthusiastic group member produces far more than dozens (or some versions say 99) apathetic group members, so its quite possible that a smaller number of elves, enthusiastically doing what strikes them as best for elf-kind is far more effective than dozens or a hundred humans apathetically performing coerced duties directed by a single, lawful vision of the domain.

    Even if you find such idealism ridiculous in human terms (and the experience with revolutionary communism and statist fascism strongly leads to that conclusion) there is no reason to argue that such could not work for elves. That elves have a different enough approach to community and realizing the good, either through a much longer experience of what is right and good or some better sense of the natural law.

  3. #103
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    One point to note regarding production is not merely quality but durability. Much of human production will simply go to maintaining survival, replacing broken tools, etc. The elves are more likely to build to last, they may take 10 times as long to make shoes, tools, etc but if the shoes then last 50 times as long the elves are in fact 5 times as productive as their human counterparts...

    Elves may also have many 'maintenance' productivity needs met by their mystical nature - as noted in previous threads elves may have very little need for crops, houses, etc meaning that the majority of production benefits society rather tan being absorbed to maintain it - allowing greater effective production than humans despite only a fractional of the actual output.

    On the elven decline point this raises an interested aspect of elven philosophy. Increasingly aware in my dotage that winters of my youth were better (lots of clean crisp snow, none of this slushy rubbish) summers finer (long glorious days of sunshine) and so on; it may be that the older elves - those who pre-date human arrival in Cerilia- will never consider themselves as anything other than beleaguered - why barely a tree stands where once the ancient groves of Daulton stood proud!

    As a result not only may the humans assume that the elves are in decline (as the elves don't war to claim land they are clearly weak) but the elves may also do so - since they remember far greater times. At some point in such a scenario inevitably younger elves who compare their modern strength to that post-Deismaar and see themselves as strong may predominate elven culture with potentially interesting times for all.

  4. #104
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:28 PM 1/3/2008, Rowan wrote:

    >I am unsure how goblins could drive elves out of their forests, but for vast numbers, such things as demonic summonings, and general sneakiness.


    They couldn`t, but for the same reasons that humans probably couldn`t be the dominate race on Cerilia if one were trying to portray the conflict between divine vs. arcane magics and/or birthrate vs. immortality. As a group goblins have the same advantages that supposedly (or are assumed to) give humanity an edge over elves: access to divine magics and population. In fact, when it comes to population numbers they are generally given a higher birthrate than humans, and with the exception of the Imperial City occupy the highest populated province in Cerilia. Essentially, the argument presented in the colour text of the BR materials is that divine magic allowed humanity to gain its foothold and begin pressing the elves back into ever smaller forest domains. However, EVERY Cerilian race that existed on the continent before human immigration had the same ability, so the commentary doesn`t really hold up.

    >I also think that elven province levels don`t reflect populations the same way as humans. Elves accept government less readily than humans, suggesting that there are greater ungoverned populations than in most human lands. Elves are also less productive than humans, and, since province levels are more a measure of productivity than population, I would expect many more elves to live in a province of a given level than humans. Thus, a level 2 elven province might contain an elven population subjecting itself to rule equal to a level 4 province, but just be less productive, and a population aloof from the kingdom equivalent to another 1-4 province levels.

    >By this reasoning, I don`t think elven provinces should have any restrictions on Ruling them, and their populations could be quite large even at current province levels. Elven decline is as much elven retreat as anything, and, now that their realms are (possibly) becoming more crowded, they could see that the time to reclaim what was lost has come. Even though the forests may have declined, after all, most of the Aelvinnwode remains under the control of non-elven peoples, as does the Erebannien. These could be resettled and consolidated if an elven resurgence took place during the absence of Anuirean unity.


    Population levels are often problematic when trying to portray actual numbers. However they are interpreted (as productivity, actual population, technological differences, or any number of other influences folks have suggested) the materials we have pretty clearly show elves in decline compared to other Cerilian races. You`ll get no argument from me regarding the interpretation of population levels being made up of things other than raw numbers--I`ve argued in favor of large numbers of unaccounted for population numbers in Cerilia and I favor a much looser definition of what is represented by those actual numbers--but my point was that it`s hard to refute that Cerilian elves are *meant* to be in decline as they are represented by the population numbers. We don`t have any pre-Deismaar numbers to compare, but since they are described as having control over areas that spanned the continent, it`s pretty clear they`ve lost an awful lot of ground. Its hard to divorce that loss of real estate from a similar loss of actual population. People aren`t often displaced without a loss of numbers.... The only historical examples I can think of represent pretty small groups, and there are far more examples of the opposite. Far fewer people than is represented even by the rather low population numbers of Cerilian elves.

    Gary
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 01-07-2008 at 12:15 AM. Reason: Vertical length.

  5. #105
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    BR Rulebook pg 12
    “The Sidhelien have no deities at all (thus, Cerilian elves cannot be priests).”

    The assumption that cerilian elves cannot be priests cannot necessarily be made from rhe first part of this statement - just that the Sidhelien do not follow deities - and that they would not follow a regent that was a priest. I would think elvish lands (and in the magical sense of being empowered by the land) as well as the Sidhelien people would reject anyone who was so outlandish as to be a follower of human gods (or even have too many human friendly tendancies in some parts) but this would not stop a rogue following a god.

    Elven Investiture

    “Since elven cultures have unique views on the roles of gods and priests, they do not have any priest regents to cast the investiture spell. Instead, elf regents enjoy some special rules concerning investiture and similar matters.. . . As above.

    The matter of how divine magic is actually cast also came up in discussions - my understanding is that the god grants the magic power to the worshiper - as opposed to wizard and sorcery or even Psionics - It doesn't seem like the worshiper needs to have any innate abilities - just to be accepted by a god who then empowers them with the spells. If a god chooses to accept an elf as a follower they can become a priest.

    Thoughts?

  6. #106
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 09:33 PM 1/10/2008, Gman wrote:

    >The assumption that cerilian elves cannot be priests cannot
    >necessarily be made from rhe first part of this statement - just
    >that the Sidhelien do not follow deities - and that they would not
    >follow a regent that was a priest. I would think elvish lands (and
    >in the magical sense of being empowered by the land) as well as the
    >Sidhelien people would reject anyone who was so outlandish as to be
    >a follower of human gods (or even have too many human friendly
    >tendancies in some parts) but this would not stop a rogue following a god.

    If an elf were to follow a god, though, I think the reaction amongst
    his/er fellow elves would be predictably unpredictable. That is,
    elves are in many ways an embodiment of the chaotic ideal, so where
    some elves might seek to throw the elf out of the community, others
    might react even more violently. Some might even be swayed by the
    ideas expressed. Most would probably simply view that individual as
    hopelessly and irretrievably insane; he would be someone who should
    be pitied, and maybe taken care of in one way another for his own
    good and the good of those with whom he comes into contact.

    >The matter of how divine magic is actually cast also came up in
    >discussions - my understanding is that the god grants the magic
    >power to the worshiper - as opposed to wizard and sorcery or even
    >Psionics - It doesn`t seem like the worshiper needs to have any
    >innate abilities - just to be accepted by a god who then empowers
    >them with the spells. If a god chooses to accept an elf as a
    >follower they can become a priest.

    As I`ve mentioned before in this thread, I think a Cerilian elf could
    "follow" a human (or any) god, but s/he couldn`t "worship" that god
    in the way that humans (or other mortal races) can. It`s simply
    outside the capacity of their "spirit" the same way that other races
    are simply prevented from taking levels as a wizard unless they have
    a bloodline.

    In essence, I don`t think even a god could make a priest out of a
    Cerilian elf even if S/He wanted to because those magics and
    abilities simply can`t take root in the elf`s body and spirit. In
    order to have an elven priest the fundamental nature of that
    character would have to change, and once that change takes place then
    the character is no longer truly Sidhelien. If such a creature were
    created it could look like an elf, have many of the same basic
    abilities as an elf, but would lose the ability to take levels as a
    wizard without a bloodline, might be very long lived, but would no
    longer be immortal, and would probably be vulnerable to disease. In
    short, such a unelf would be, for all intents and purposes, human (or
    more likely a half-elf....)

    Gary

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    First, I don`t particularly get the feeling that elves are very concerned with things like safety.
    I agree that from the POV of their human neighbors, they certainly seem that way, I don't think that's necessarily how the Sidhelien themselves feel. I think they seem that way to humans because many things that are very dangerous to humans are not really dangerous to elves at all. On the filp side, perhaps those few things that elves are concerned about are dangerous to the elves but aren't even noticed by humans -- e.g., IMO, going to a province with too low a source level is physically damaging to the elves, but poses no threat to any other species.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    so things like living at the tops of trees without guardrails makes perfect sense. After all, it`s the view that matters.
    You don't need guardrails if everyone can cast Feather Fall. =) Magic is as natural to the Sidhelien as breathing; therefore, I think their entire society is built upon the expectation of its pervasive use.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    violence is in their nature, so violent death is an important factor in their death rate.
    This didn't come out quite right -- we already know that they can *only* die of violence, so their death rate equals their violent deaths per unit time. Presumably you meant to distinguish between accidental death and murder, but the Sidhelien strike me as really hard to kill. Actually, tying this back into your comment on lack of concern for safety, I suspect that perhaps the leading cause of death is hubris: they are almost always perfectly safe when doing things which would be suicidally reckless for the average human, but that's because they have lots more magic power and levels than the average human. They only run into trouble when they get so used to being able to trivially squash whatever gets in their way that they get careless and stop looking for whether this human is the one-in-a-million situation which actually presents a threat. This is, in part, a version of your Vegas comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    Another problem for elves is the simple ennui of immortality.
    I disagree. Yes, I concur with the standard trope that *humans* aren't psychologically suited for immortality, but then humans aren't naturally immortal. The Sidhelien are, so they ought to be inherently psychologically suited for the infinite lifespan they naturally have.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    it is possible imagine them "losing the will to fight" so hard, and allowing themselves to fall rather than carry on.
    I don't think losing the will to carry on the struggle is the same thing as losing the will to live. After a few thousand years of fighting the goblins, maybe they take a few thousand years off to be trees, but I sincerely doubt they ever let themselves be slain.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    2. Elves can starve or die of thirst. Though it`s harder to starve an elf than a man because apparently elves require less nourishment and are able to draw the sustenance that they do need from the
    environment more easily than can mortals, it is possible for them to be starved to death in, for example, a dungeon, so it stands to reason they could starve or die of thirst in extreme environments.
    I have recommended before the idea that Sidhelien actually derive most of their nourishment from mebhiaghl. I think they starve to death in provinces with source potential zero even if they eat food constantly, but they never need to eat or drink at all when in provinces with source potential nine. This was inspired by my desires to make explicit their intimate ties to magic, explain their immortality in an in-game physics sense, and have their society completly lack peasants. Tying fertility to source potential is a natural part of this idea, but that won't limit their birthrate at all, since elves in their home forests have easy access to the highest source potentials in Cerilia.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    3. Tolkien`s elves are ever young, but the period of their procreation is relatively short. They wed as young adults and generally have a small number of children (though there are exceptions) and then lose interest in sex
    Thus spake the Catholic professor of linguistics born in Victorian England. I think elves in whatever world have lots of sex (I don't really see how you can qualify as an embodiment of nature unless you do), but have very few children (since otherwise immortality very quickly leads to overpopulation). The early in life thing doesn't strike me as consistent with his published works, either -- Arwen and her brothers were born in the early centuries of the Third Age, but her father and his brother were born in the closing years of the First Age, more than 3,400 years before; Arwen herself is about 2,800 when she becomes a mother. And they're *half*-elves! I don't think elves having siblings who are 6,000 years apart is at all unlikely, and their society ought to accept that as perfectly normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    4. Tolkien`s elves married once and for life. Again, he broke his own rules once or twice on this one, but generally speaking the marriage and procreating were synonymous concepts for Tolkien`s elves, and there was only one lifemate for such things.
    It's that Victorian Catholic thing again. =) I doubt the highly fickle Cerilian elves ever get married at all, and if they do it certainly isn't for life. It probably looks like marriage for life to humans and goblins, but the immortal Sidhelien may very well think of living together for fifty years as the equivalent of humans hooking up for a weekend.

    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    just as cutting down a tree will kill the dryad, cutting down a forest will kill the Sidhe. Proportionate numbers of deforested provinces could represent losses in the Sidhe population.
    I heartily endorse this view myself, but there is a problem with using it to explain elven decline: they know it too, so they will take steps to prevent it. The Sidhelien warred with the goblins two thousand years before the first humans came to Cerilia, so they would certainly have realized at the time that this was a problem, and been ready when the humans came. Yes, if you could somehow cut down all the trees, it would probably kill all the elves -- but in practice, the elves will come to defend the trees, so you will have to kill them first anyway before you can cut down the forest.

  9. #109
    Cerilian elves have no inherent inability to worship gods. Cerilia simply lacks gods who inspire faith and devotion in its elven population.

  10. #110
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    Hmm did the Elves "worship" Azrai in the war of the shadow. They certainly were his "Followers".
    (just another reason to dislike gods in any case) - It just seems to me that the ability to worship gods is in any sentient being - I can understand all cerlian elves having a strong distain for the worship of gods but I can't read this as spiritual incapacity to worship a god and receive priests powers.

    Also most elves would think of a elvish priest as a human loving affront to their way of life and a follower of the powers that caused their fall from power; a loser who wants to personally repeat the fall of Azrai; displaying a complete lack of respect for their culture etc. but can't see why they wouldn't have the ability for it if some jerk maverick wants to be rejected by the entire elvish population.

    They certainly have the ability to absorb "divine essence" in the form of blood powers (but I guess so do rocks and swords.)

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