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  1. #11
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    I found the entire discussion
    http://www.birthright.net/forums/arc...hp/t-2556.html

    If Duireina = Osoerde the problem is solved,but I am not sure about that.

  2. #12
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Well, if Dureina is actually Osoerde and Brosen is Brosengae/Taeghas, then yes, the problem is solved, except for Taeghas being listed as one of the Twelve Duchies (and Brosengae not) when the Ninth Tribe was actually called Brosen.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    How about this:
    IIRC, the Andu landed in Cerilia somewhere near to where the Imperial City stands today and spread out from there.
    Brosengae is nearer to this site than Taeghas and was therefore settled first, by the Brosen tribe which also lent its name to the country. From there, Taeghas was settled.
    When the duchies were formed several hundred years later, Taeghas and Brosengae were already two entities and Taeghas had become more important, maybe simply through its size or by closer relations to the Emperor. Thus, it was Taeghas that became a duchy.

  4. #14
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Except that somewhere along the line Brosengae became a duchy and Taeghas became a county without either of their statuses changing.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Damn, sloppy research again. I didn't have my rule books handy, and didn't bother to check out the existing titles for Taeghas and Brosengae.
    Well anyway, for my campaign I'd make either Taeghas or Brosengae a duchy and change either the current titles or the list of the original duchies accordingly.
    Problem solved

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    States rise and fall, and titles generally don't fall along with them. States may or may not gain recognition of improved titles. For Taeghas to gain a better title, say to be recognized as a barony, they would need to get Boeruine and Avanil (or Diemed and Ghoere) on board, acknowledging these titles. Avanil might be inclined to do this as a sop to its ally as a reward for support above and beyond, but getting Boeruine to agree would require that this be included in some treaty agreement.

    Perhaps its been in negotiations before, but being dropped to achieve more important goals (territorial, monetary, or just to secure any peace agreement). Maybe previous counts were never in a position or, Like Harald, had interests elsewhere and didn't really care.

    There are references to land claims that Brosengae has against Taeghas (and Harald's refusal to consider these), so it certainly seems that at one point Brosengae had more territory. Since one of the ways that Eriene Mierelen could end up the reluctant ally of Darien Avan, is for Brosengae have lost a war (or a series of wars) to Avanil at some point in its history. Its probably recent (within a few generations) that the territory was lost, and probabaly within the current reigns of Darien and Harald that Eriene bolted again and had to be reminded of her obligations by force.

    This explains the relationship, her resentment, and the smallish size of the Duchy of Brosengae.

    Putting the reduction of Brosengae to far back begins to beg more and more questions that require explanation. Keeping things recent seems the best explanation.

  7. #17
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Nice. I knew the friendly chaps here at BR.net could work it all out

  8. #18
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    What if tribes don't correspond nicely to duchies, but rather correspond to rivers? Tribes may have settled in river valleys, taken the best soils, the best hunting grounds, formed cities, more complex states, and then finally formed the territorial duchies.



    Suppose:
    Boru settle on the Black River and some adjacent sea coast (Seaport, Tariene, Seasedge), develope a power base on the Black River and the identified coast, and push south into warmer lands. Ultimatly Talinie becomes lightly settled by the Boru, but only loosely tied to its political leadership.
    Duireina settle on the Elfwash river and adjacent costs (Bacaele, Portage)
    Brosen settle the coasts of the bay around Ilsien to Binder

    That's the West Coast, the South coast saw the Deretha along the Spiderfell River and the good coast of Almier. The Aeren settled on the Berendor River.

    The heart of Anuire is the Maesil River, and seven of the tribes seem to have settled on it. At the mouth settled the Anwe. The Elaime settled on the Tuor River. The stretch of the Maesil between the Tuor and the Stonebyrn was settled by the Gehaiste. Further up the Maesil settled the Bheallach, and The uppermost Maesil was settled by the Elin. The lower Stonebyrn was settled by the Mhora, and the upper Stonebyrn was settled by the Carel.

    Thoughts?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    What if tribes don't correspond nicely to duchies, but rather correspond to rivers? Tribes may have settled in river valleys, taken the best soils, the best hunting grounds, formed cities, more complex states, and then finally formed the territorial duchies.
    Very nice! To reduce crowding on the Maesil, I will point out that there's a river between Osoerde and Coeranys which is currently unoccupied on your map; a bit swampy, but no worse than the Osoerde-Aerenwe river. The Diemed coast near Aerele is also a good spot; the shape of the land there makes me think it was the upstream end of a significant river valley back before the land bridge was broken at Deismaar.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The descriptions on the Andu page of the wiki guided my locations. The tribes spread out by occupying non-alluvial land nearby.

    Another thing to consider with this map, is that its a snapshot. I imagine people arrive, move along one of the rivers, its gets crowded, some move off river, and a few (the Carel) move further.

    I didn't go with a tribe on the river between Coeranys and Osoerde for several reasons. One was its swampy. I think swampier than the Berendor, which is mostly swampy on the Osoerde side, and not so bad on the Aerenwe side. Second, there is no duchy there, and you'd imagine that the homeland of a tribe would have a duchy. The only duchy nearby is Elinie, and if the Elin started on the east coast, why would the place named after them be the last place they occupied rather than the first? Finally, there are a lot of high population on the Maesil, so its still more crowded now than the East Coast.

    So there was a method to my madness.

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