Blackguards

[Bialaska]

I don't see why Blackguards shouldn't be part of Birthright. They are the evil gods champions, where the paladins are the good gods champions. Blackguards would dedicate themselves to either the Vos gods or some of the various other evil deities out there.

As for fullfilling the requirement for meeting an outsider, then I would think that meeting a powerful follower of the deity in question could be enough, but also remember that those of Azrai's bloodline automatically counts as having been in such contact.

[RaspK_FOG]

The problem most people have is that the typical blackguard imagery is very much alike a fallen paladin or knight; however, quite ironically, the word means just that: "scoundrel" (or just about anything close to that).

So, theoretically, any person who meets the requirements can become a blackguard; in fact, it's part of the game that this is so. If you look carefully, only a rascal can actually meet them, anyway (the odd point being the religious and outsider-related requirements, which are put in for an entirely different reason: the class's divine spells).

[dunsel]

The way I understand the blackguard prestige class is that it is different from that of a paladin mostly because it is a prestige class. In most campaigns all gods can have paladins (the BR rules should be written to allow this IMO) but a paladin of belenik is different than a blackguard. The biggest difference is a blackguard's sneak attacks, giving this to a paladin of an evil god doesn't make sense and wouldn't be balanced. Prestige classes are optional in a campaign and the paladin class needn't be rewritten to allow for a blackguard in some campaigns. I don't believe it is worthwhile to combine paladins and blackguards, they are fundamentally different.

Now as to a blackguard in birthright, I don't think belenik qualifies as the contact needed for taking this class. Azrai does, and by extension the shadow world and the evil held within it. With the planar rules modified for birthright, the shadow world is the source for extra-planar evils, in the BR campaign a devil or demon would be from the shadow world or one of the after life locations. Of course, a DM can bring in a standard devil or demon from another campaign setting if they want.

Realm spells? The way the BR rules are written a paladin can have realm spells, although it doesn't explicitly say this. It also doesn't say that you must be a cleric. What it does say is you have to have a certain holding level and you have to be able to cast a certain level of clerical spell.

Also, in the interestes of full disclosure, I'm the DM in the campaign Midnight mentioned.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, I doubt the core rules allow for paladins of chaotic and evil deities; in fact, even in 2e, when the worshippers/priesthood alignments were very lax, few deities outside LG had paladins, very few CG had any (with the notable example of Sûne), and no evil deity EVER had any paladins (it becomes somewhat prohibitive when you won't knowingly associate with evil characters)...

As for the planar issues, who said there are no Outer Planes!? :confused: There are, of course, outside the equivalent of the Material Plane of Birthrigh, and are unaccesible from within, but that's an entirely different matter. To put it simply, I don't think there is even the slightest indication that outsiders come from the Shadow World in Birthright.

[dunsel]

I doubt the core rules allow for paladins of chaotic and evil deities

They don't, but once you go beyond the core rules there are rule sets for chaotic, evil, and even elemental paladins. In those cases, they don't avoid consorting evil, they avoid their opposite.

who said there are no Outer Planes!?

There are outer planes, and everything exists in a spelljammer style multiverse if you want to look at it that way. What I meant was that in standard core Birthright the only plane that you interact with is the shadow world. According to the original rulebook spells that interact with other planes, such as dimensional door, are limited to the shadow world.

[kgauck]

The biggest difference is a blackguard's sneak attacks, giving this to a paladin of an evil god doesn't make sense and wouldn't be balanced.

Here is the thinking. A proper knight never makes an undeclared attack or an below the belt attack. They fight by honorable rules. Its even not allowed for a knight to outnumber a defender. Some knights considered themselves so elite, even one on one attacks were considered unfair.

The blackguard had rejected these rules, and not only will attack without a declaration (a surprise attack) but will double up on opponents (flanking attacks) and would use dirty blows (covering my bases on other uses of the sneak attack mechanic) all of which are prohibited from proper chivalric knights. In other terms, the blackguard is a black knight, someone who is trained properly, but doesn't fight that way. The black knight is a standard villain in chivalric literature and one of his foremost qualities is this business of not following the rules. To show his proficiency at surprise, double-teaming, and dirty pool, the blackguard is given the sneak attack.

This kind of special ability only makes sense of you play with paladins (or other kinds of knights) who are scrupulous about not doing these things, because it creates the stark contrast between the honorable and the dishonorable warrior.

[geeman]

At 12:16 PM 12/10/2007, dunsel wrote:

>The way the BR rules are written a paladin can have realm spells,
>although it doesn`t explicitly say this. It also doesn`t say that
>you must be a cleric. What it does say is you have to have a
>certain holding level and you have to be able to cast a certain
>level of clerical spell.

In the original BR Rulebook it says that "A priest or wizard regent
can spend a domain action to cast a mighty enchantment..." and uses
those same terms throughout the texts describing realm spells. It
does occasionally say "spellcasters" but almost always follows that
term with "priest" and "wizard." Of course, "priest" is a bit of a
muddle as in 2e specialty priests were a subclass of clerics, but
since all BR priests are specialty priests and there are no generic
clerics that shouldn`t really be much of a matter of interpretation.

Having said that, I`m a proponent of any spellcaster with access to a
source or temple holding from which he can collect RP being able to
cast realm spells through it. In fact, I`ve argued that one should
be able to cast realm spells through any holding if one can collect
RP from it as I see that as the major factor in channelling RP
through the holding in the first place. That is, however, an
expansion of the concept.

Gary

[Midnight]

Well than the majority than agrees that Blackguards not only could be in Birthright but perhaps should and we agree that Paladins and thus Blackguards should have the ability to cast realm spells provided they meet the other requirements. Even if we don’t agree on the definition of a Blackguard and to who they associate with we agree on the above two points.

[Sinister]

There are outer planes, and everything exists in a spelljammer style multiverse if you want to look at it that way. What I meant was that in standard core Birthright the only plane that you interact with is the shadow world. According to the original rulebook spells that interact with other planes, such as dimensional door, are limited to the shadow world.

To expand on this, I suspect the reason this was done is to keep in tact the rare magic of the world. It seems that everyone is always popping in and out in Forgotten Realms, one of the reasons I dislike the world. I've always took the statement to mean, you can't go anywhere except the shadow world in birthright and it is the shadow world itself that is connected to the rest of the DnD planes and worlds.

I tell my players for instance, to be sucked into ravenloft one would have to be in the shadow world.

[Sinister]

Well than the majority than agrees that Blackguards not only could be in Birthright but perhaps should and we agree that Paladins and thus Blackguards should have the ability to cast realm spells provided they meet the other requirements. Even if we don’t agree on the definition of a Blackguard and to who they associate with we agree on the above two points.

See there's some wonderful unclear rules to birthright, and I for one like it. There are no printed paladin realm spells to my knowledge but could there be? That's an example of great DM choice to make. I for one would allow it but I would respect a DMs wishes that didn't want it either.