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  1. #1
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    Post Savage Worlds Birthright

    Hello all.

    In another thread I mentioned that I have been working on a Savage Worlds conversion for Birthright. For details see: http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...2694#post42694

    In this thread I hope those interested will share their ideas, questions, and concerns. I will periodically post a progress report on my conversion, and will announce when drafts are ready to share.

    I also hope that some of you guys will be able to brainstorm with me and offer suggestions about converting certain things and balancing flavor vs. crunch. For example, I have converted about 80% of the Blood Abilities without issue, but a few remain that either seem uninspired to me, and so I'm thinking about leaving them out, or have effects that are hard to quantify in a FFF Savage Worlds fashion. I will post my specific concerns later on.

    For now, I invite all of you SW fans to get involved with this!

    Thanks!
    Joe

  2. #2
    I have wanted to see a thread like this for ages!

    How have you handled bloodlines in terms of SW rules? I assume there is an edge along the lines of "Blooded Scion", but how did you approach the issue of bloodline score, strength and derivation and # of powers? How are the blood abilities handled, too?
    Last edited by Tannen; 12-08-2007 at 07:02 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tannen View Post
    I have wanted to see a thread like this for ages!
    Me too, Tannen. Me,too. Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing your ideas on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannen View Post
    How have you handled bloodlines in terms of SW rules? I assume there is an edge along the lines of "Blooded Scion", but how did you approach the issue of bloodline score, strength and derivation and # of powers? How are the blood abilities handled, too?

    I have one Edge called "Blooded" that is a background edge. It grants the character a bloodline, and acts as the prerequisite for most arcane spells.

    I never liked the wide ranges inherent in the bloodscore generation method of original BR. My current set up is to have the Bloodline Score = 5 + 2D6 (this roll may Ace). In addition, there is another background Edge called Strong Bloodline which grants the character a +7 to this roll. It may be taken multiple times during character gen.

    This method will tend to have starting characters with score of about 9-14 or 16-21. Due to the ace, about 1 in 3 characters will have starting scores of somewhat above this.

    I prefer to have starting PCs with tainted or minor bloodlines, but other GMs are free to change these rolls to permit higher starting scores.

    I allow the PC to choose his derivation.

    The bloodscore strength is tied directly to the score, as opposed to overlapping ranges. Powers are given like this:

    Score Strength Powers (minor/major/great)
    1 – 09 Tainted 0 / 0 / 0
    10 – 19 Tainted 1 / 0 / 0
    20 – 35 Minor 2 / 0 / 0
    36 – 55 Major 2 / 1 / 0
    56 – 79 Great 2 / 2 / 1
    80 + True 3 / 2 / 2


    There is no overlap in ranges and the number of powers granted is streamlined compared to original BR and the BRCS. I'm still tinkering, so your comments are welcome.

    I have not decided whether to do random blood ability generation or allow players to choose. I'm leaning towards randomization to prevent munchkinism and to add flavor and RP opportunities. Part of me, though, wants to allow choice, just to be nice to players and allow them to build the characters they want. Your thoughts on this are appreciated too.

    I converted many of the blood abilities, but still have quite a few that need work. I will post again with those that need work, and see what the ideas you guys have.


    I also need to work out bloodtheft and the mechanics of a nonblooded creature becoming blooded. I'll probably just have the character gain the blooded edge, generate the score and abilities as normal and require him to "pay off" the Edge with his next Advance.

    Thanks
    Joe
    Last edited by jdpb1; 12-09-2007 at 06:07 AM.

  4. #4
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    Post Races

    Here are the racial abilities in my draft conversion:

    Dwarf
    • Tough: Dwarves are stout and tough. They start with a d6 Vigor instead of a d4.
    Magic Resistant: Dwarves begin play with the Arcane Resistance Edge from the SWRB.
    • Brawny: All dwarves start with the Brawny Edge at no cost.
    • Darksight: Dwarves can see in near total darkness. They suffer no penalties for Dim and Dark lighting

    The only thing missing here is the resistance to blunt weapons. I'm debating how to convert it (maybe +2 Toughness vs. blunt attacks), or if I should just drop it altogether. Dwarves have a nice set of abilities without adding another one.


    Elves
    Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4.
    Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
    • Wilderness Walk: Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface. They leave no tracks in wilderness environments and thus cannot be tracked. In addition, they are unhindered by terrain and move at full speed regardless.
    Arcane Magic Ability: Elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.


    Halfling
    • Small: Halflings average only about 4’ tall. Their small size subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
    • Luck: Halflings are a hardy folk with a knack for avoiding trouble just before it gets the best of them. They draw one additional benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
    • Shadowsight: As Detect Arcana power, but limited to supernaturally evil creatures or undead, and necromantic magic (GM’s call based on origins, effects, and trappings).
    Shadow Walk: As Teleport power. 3 / week with a 15” range. The Halfling must make a Spirit check to activate the power. This check is modified by environmental conditions thusly:

    Night: +2 Crypt/Battlefield: +2 Winter: +2
    Dawn/Dusk: 0 Wilds/Desolate: 0 Spring / Fall: 0
    Daytime: -4 Civilization: -2 Summer: -2


    Shadow Walk acts like a Dimension Door that doesn't permit travel to the Shadow World, only through it. I am considering implementing a rule that this ability and the Teleport spell carries a risk of being temporarily stranded in the Shadow World or waylaid by an inhabitant (maybe "Draw a card- an Ace means you've been attacked/trapped/lost" etc).
    Maybe this power should change altogether from a dimension door type power to a "plane shift" type power (i.e. actual travel to the SW). Not sure yet. Your thoughts?


    Half Elves
    Not converted yet

    Humans
    One free Edge

    I haven't added any mechanical differences between Anuireans, Brecht etc. I think this is more flavor stuff and FFF demands we drop any nit picky de minimis stat or skill bonuses.


    Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

    Joe

  5. #5
    Bloodlines

    I like much of what you've done with bloodlines. I, too, disliked the randomness of the bloodline score generation method from 2e. (I'm not really up to speed on the 3.x versions).

    I was thinking along the lines of a tiered system of edges such as:

    Bloodline (Tainted)
    ---------->Bloodline (Minor)
    -------------------->Bloodline (Major)
    ------------------------------>Bloodline (Great)

    I like your way better (the aceing on the 2d6 roll is an excellent mechanic to simulate the potential for an exceptional bloodline).

    Did you have any particular reasons for the values of 5(+2d6) and +7 for "Strong Bloodline". Would a flat 10+2d6 and then +10 for "Strong Bloodline" simplify things? Just a thought, anyway.

    I like the table for bloodline score/ strength /abilities. It really cleans up what always had my players scratching their heads using the 2e tables.

    I like the idea of keeping blood abilities random - the "gods" choose their own gifts, not the characters.

    Bloodtheft could be handled pretty easily - just add on the additional bloodline points (and determine any new powers if appropriate). I always understood that unblooded characters could not gain a bloodline through bloodtheft, so the issue of "gaining a bloodline in play" should never arise, should it?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post
    Here are the racial abilities in my draft conversion:

    Dwarf
    • Tough: Dwarves are stout and tough. They start with a d6 Vigor instead of a d4.
    Magic Resistant: Dwarves begin play with the Arcane Resistance Edge from the SWRB.
    • Brawny: All dwarves start with the Brawny Edge at no cost.
    • Darksight: Dwarves can see in near total darkness. They suffer no penalties for Dim and Dark lighting

    The only thing missing here is the resistance to blunt weapons. I'm debating how to convert it (maybe +2 Toughness vs. blunt attacks), or if I should just drop it altogether. Dwarves have a nice set of abilities without adding another one.
    I like this. Leave out the resistance to blunt weapons, I always thought that was a bit odd anyway.

    Two suggestions - Add the following 'negative' racial traits:
    • Slow: Dwarves have a pace of 5".
    • Magic Resistant: Dwarves have difficulty working arcane magic - costs for improving arcane spellcasting skills are doubled. (Combine this hindrance with the benefit, or drop entirely if dwarves aren't even allowed the arcane background edge)


    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post

    Elves
    Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4.
    Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
    • Wilderness Walk: Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface. They leave no tracks in wilderness environments and thus cannot be tracked. In addition, they are unhindered by terrain and move at full speed regardless.
    • Arcane Magic Ability: Elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.
    Nice. How about adding "Immortal: Elves do not age and are immune to natural diseases"
    Also how about some kind of drawback along the lines of the "Outsider" Hindrance when dealing with non-elves?



    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post
    Halfling
    • Small: Halflings average only about 4’ tall. Their small size subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
    • Luck: Halflings are a hardy folk with a knack for avoiding trouble just before it gets the best of them. They draw one additional benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
    • Shadowsight: As Detect Arcana power, but limited to supernaturally evil creatures or undead, and necromantic magic (GM’s call based on origins, effects, and trappings).
    Shadow Walk: As Teleport power. 3 / week with a 15” range. The Halfling must make a Spirit check to activate the power. This check is modified by environmental conditions thusly:

    Night: +2 Crypt/Battlefield: +2 Winter: +2
    Dawn/Dusk: 0 Wilds/Desolate: 0 Spring / Fall: 0
    Daytime: -4 Civilization: -2 Summer: -2


    Shadow Walk acts like a Dimension Door that doesn't permit travel to the Shadow World, only through it. I am considering implementing a rule that this ability and the Teleport spell carries a risk of being temporarily stranded in the Shadow World or waylaid by an inhabitant (maybe "Draw a card- an Ace means you've been attacked/trapped/lost" etc).
    Maybe this power should change altogether from a dimension door type power to a "plane shift" type power (i.e. actual travel to the SW). Not sure yet. Your thoughts?
    I assume that shadow sight requires a spirit roll to activate? How many power points does a halfling get to feed these powers? what rate do the power points return at.I realise where the 3 /week comes from, but it looks very "D&D-ish". It would be nice to somehow tweak the cost of the "teleport" power and the rate at which points return for halflings somehow to achieve the same effect within the paradigm of the SW rules.... Not sure on details.

    I'd also add:
    • Slow: Halflings have a pace of 5" ; and maybe also
    • Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4

    (I think that Halflings need the 'Agile' edge to make them 'balanced' with elves and dwarves)



    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post
    Half Elves
    Not converted yet
    How about:

    One free Edge, plus
    • Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
    • Arcane Magic Ability: Half-elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post
    Humans
    One free Edge
    Given how 'loaded up' the other races are, I'd say giving humans TWO free edges might be better. (Given that being blooded costs an edge, one of the two free edges will go towards 'buying' a bloodline

    Quote Originally Posted by jdpb1 View Post
    I haven't added any mechanical differences between Anuireans, Brecht etc. I think this is more flavor stuff and FFF demands we drop any nit picky de minimis stat or skill bonuses.
    I agree for sure.

    I like what you've done with the races here! Nice work.

  7. #7
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    Smile

    Thanks for your kind words and thoughtful insight Tannen. You've made some really good suggestions here and in your Races post, and I think I will integrate most or all of them. Here are some of my thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannen View Post

    Did you have any particular reasons for the values of 5(+2d6) and +7 for "Strong Bloodline". Would a flat 10+2d6 and then +10 for "Strong Bloodline" simplify things? Just a thought, anyway.
    No strong reasons, just trying to eyeball the potential average scores produced by the roll. If I have my math right, your suggested method would tend to produce characters with Bloodline Scores around 16-18 or 26-28. A good roll with aces (and the edge) might up this to 38-40. That puts characters at "high" Tainted or "mid" Minor on average, with a good roll (and the extra Edge) putting them at "low" Major.

    These ranges seems perfectly good to me. I wouldn't go any higher, though. I might consider splitting the difference and doing 5 + 2D6 with Strong Bloodline = +10. I think we are right in the ballpark no matter how we split it, and GMs can give or take +5 as they prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tannen View Post
    I like the idea of keeping blood abilities random - the "gods" choose their own gifts, not the characters.
    Yeah, me too. I think I will keep it this way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tannen View Post
    Bloodtheft could be handled pretty easily - just add on the additional bloodline points (and determine any new powers if appropriate). I always understood that unblooded characters could not gain a bloodline through bloodtheft, so the issue of "gaining a bloodline in play" should never arise, should it?
    I agree with the ease of bloodtheft mechanics. Much can probably be lifted from the BRCS or one of the other D20 conversion docs out there. I'll flesh this out and add it to the SWBR doc in the next few days. I think bloodtheft would require a Coup de Grace attack or a Called Shot to the heart with a piercing melee weapon(@ -6). The called shot would have to kill the character outright to work as bloodtheft. Given the SW rules, the attack would have to inflict at least four wounds to do this (not easy at all).

    Regarding non-bloods becoming blooded: I don't recall right now if this was possible in original BR - I think it was. It is in the BRCS, and I personally feel it should be an option, either through usurpation or Investiture. I think I'll write it up as I suggested above and have the character gain the Blooded Edge, and require him to "pay off" the Edge with his next Advance. Bloodline Score generation and Derivation would be tied to that of the "donating" scion.
    Last edited by jdpb1; 12-10-2007 at 03:13 PM.

  8. #8
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    So far I think all of it looks good. Bloodtheft is possible with a non blooded character so that should be in the rules.

  9. #9
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    I completely agree with:

    Slow - Dwarves & Halflings
    Immortal - Elves
    Outsider - Elves
    Half Elf conversion

    These are all great, and I will them to the conversion doc. Thanks!

    I think you might be right about giving humans two Edges, especially considering that most folks will burn one for Blooded. I will change the conversion doc to reflect this. Maybe another SW BR lover will pipe in with their thoughts on this.

    I'm less sold on the "Agile" for halflings. I guess it is a matter of whether BR halflings are Hobbit-like or Kender-like (e.g. Lidda from 3rd Ed). The pictures and descriptions make me think "hobbit," but I guess the D20 racial Dex bonus implies agility. Hmmm. I have to think about this.

    When i started the conversion, I went back and forth about the Dwarf magic thing. Allow it? Forbid it? Hinder it? Dwarven wizards seem out of place, but Dwarven "runesmiths" make sense to me. Since SW relies so strongly on trappings to differentiate "wizard vs. runesmith" I left out any restrictions or hindrances on Dwarven arcane magic. I like your suggestion quite a bit - makes a lot of sense and is FFF. I think i might incorporate it into the conversion for now, and maybe we can discuss dwarven magic use with each other and other forum members a bit more. This is more of a "BR Flavor" discussion, than an SW rules issue, I suppose.

    Shadowsight: The halfling just needs to concentrate for one round to use the effect. No PPs. I wasn't even going to require a Spirit roll. I don't have much a feeling either way. Your thoughts?

    Shadow Walk: 3/week is "D&D-ish' I suppose. I just didn't want to bog down the character with having to track a separate pool of PPs just for his racial ability. What about eliminating the 3/week, and requiring the character to spend a Benny to activate the power? This limits the power's usage, and is very SW. It forces the character to weigh the benefits of using the power because it has a cost. Actually. . . I like this a lot. Your thoughts?

    Thanks again for your input, T. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your ideas!

    Joe

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    So far I think all of it looks good. Bloodtheft is possible with a non blooded character so that should be in the rules.
    Thanks Sinister. I'm with you on this. It will definitely be in the SWBR conversion doc.


    I look forward to hearing your thoughts on other conversion stuff too.

    Thanks!
    Joe

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