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  1. #11
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Its two domains run by the same person, so two random events.

    Both domains are run by the same person.

    I would also say that for random events, a very large single domain would have multiple random events. The principle of having a random event for provincial lords as well as domain rulers is that there is a certain amount of random stuff happening everywhere. If having a bigger realm means there are fewer random events per province, then there is more stability in the world, just because states are larger, and that doesn't follow.

    One concept I use a lot is something I call a "region" which is any province and all adjacent provinces. That allows me to keep things more consistant than "a domain" which can vary dramatically in size. Now, most actual realms are roughly the size of a region (seven provinces) so I don't made adjustments for a 6 province realm or an 8 province realm, but for say, a 3 province realm, I would either want to make sure that I match a random event to a smaller realm (requiring a Diplomacy action from Medoere and from Avanil is not the same thing, Avanil has more money, but less time/province) or use fewer random events.

    So while Medoere, is a small realm, its regent also runs the Celestial Spell, so I would tend to throw half as many (or less troublesome) random events at Medoere, but would also throw random events at the Celestial spell (again of a smaller nature or less frequent).

  2. #12
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    Its two domains run by the same person, so two random events.

    Both domains are run by the same person.
    I would disagree.

    BR Campaign setting rulebook pg 33:

    "Domains are rarely made up of one kind of holding and usually include several elements.

    A character's domain comprises any or all of the following:

    - the provinces he rules

    - holdings in his own provinces

    - holdings in provinces ruled by other PCs or NPCs

    - assets such as roads, castles, and armies"

    "realms: The term realm refers to any domain that includes one or more provinces."

    Many, many listed regents have holdings of more than 1 type - does this mean that they have multiple "domains" because of this?
    Duane Eggert

  3. #13
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    When I was trying to expand the random events table on the wiki (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind.../Random_events) I tried playing with altering the frequency tables to reflect the idea that larger holdings should have more happening in them - and incorporate a few other prejudices, the outcome was: http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...ents_mechanics.

    Neither has been play-tested so I'd be interested in any feedback.

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    I would disagree.
    This is a rules definition, and I generally don't think rules are very useful, which is why I don't offer rules for solutions I describe.

    The descriptive material offers us plenty of evidence of conflict between members of the Talinie organization (the nobles) and the NIT organization (the priests), and the existence of two sets of identifications - Talinie and NIT - and the lack of harmony between them, argues against seeing them as the same domain.

    There are times when its best to see a domain as the organization of the regent, and given one regent, one domain. I would not think it neccesary to require the same domain actions for the NIT and Talinie to coordinate and interact as I would if both were run by two PC's who were in the same gaming group.

    But for other purposes, for almost all role playing purposes, they are two domains which happen to be run by the same person.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    I'm inclined to side with irdeggman with regard to Talinie, though for different reasons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelandrin View Post
    The Thane of Talinie is the leader of the NIT
    I'd say its the other way around, the leader of the NIT is also the Thane of Talinie. Talinie as a theocratic realm is simply a territory ruled and administrated by the church, similar to the Papal states or any of the numerous ecclesiastic territories in medieval Germany. The rulership of the land is tied to the church hierarchy, and - barring any revolutionary changes - the two are inseparable. Thus, Talinie is only one domain, in my view.

    In game terms, I don't really see a difference between a province ruler with law holdings, and a theocracy comprised of temple holdings as well as ruling provinces and law holding.

    If I take my home town, one of the oldest bishop seats in Europe, as an example, the existence of secular nobles is not really an argument against this. These nobles are secular vassals of the bishop, err, Thane, they could hold offices in the realm's administration or simply be large landholders. In the case of Talinie, they probably pre-date the establishment of the NIT, and might in time be replaced by church officials. Or, a noble family or two might gain enough influence to often, if not always, select the head of the NIT from their midst.

    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    But for other purposes, for almost all role playing purposes, they are two domains which happen to be run by the same person.
    Well, I guess I can follow your line of thought, and while I disagree with regard to Talinie, a construction like this might be valid and useful for other realms like Endier, which indeed basically consists of two domains, the city of Endier and its surrounding territory and a 'private', profit-oriented merchant company.
    Last edited by Beruin; 12-04-2007 at 04:19 AM.

  6. #16
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Talinie was only united with NIT during the reign of Thuriene's mother, Thalia Armara, it is not a, like any of the territorial bishoprics, land originally administered by the Church with secular powers derived from the land.

    Talinie was a Barony for a long time before the NIT merged with it.

    The granting of temporal lands to spiritual lords was generally a way to protect the Bishops from becomming the pawns of the local lord, even in the case of the Papal States.

    Talinie is basically married to the NIT, and I can certainly see that this union could dissolve and the nobles of Talinie secure a sucessor to Thuriene who is someone other than a priest of the NIT, let alone its heir.

  7. #17
    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    When I was trying to expand the random events table on the wiki (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind.../Random_events) I tried playing with altering the frequency tables to reflect the idea that larger holdings should have more happening in them - and incorporate a few other prejudices, the outcome was: http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...ents_mechanics.

    Neither has been play-tested so I'd be interested in any feedback.
    Andrew,

    I liked your idea and have made an Excel spreadsheet to include it into my domain tracking sheet. I'll post this Excel file now. I think it provides motive for Vassels. I haven't play tested it yet, but programming it into Excel gave me time to think about it. Hopefully I got it right.

    Steve

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    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    3eDomainTracker posted for download.

  9. #19
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    This is a rules definition, and I generally don't think rules are very useful, which is why I don't offer rules for solutions I describe.

    The descriptive material offers us plenty of evidence of conflict between members of the Talinie organization (the nobles) and the NIT organization (the priests), and the existence of two sets of identifications - Talinie and NIT - and the lack of harmony between them, argues against seeing them as the same domain.

    There are times when its best to see a domain as the organization of the regent, and given one regent, one domain. I would not think it neccesary to require the same domain actions for the NIT and Talinie to coordinate and interact as I would if both were run by two PC's who were in the same gaming group.

    But for other purposes, for almost all role playing purposes, they are two domains which happen to be run by the same person.

    So it is vastly different than Medoere?

    Or Ariya?

    Do you give the players 2 Domain Record sheets?

    Do they get 2 sets of domain actions?

    Does he have 2 different sets of domain power?

    Do the "incomes" (GB and RP) mix and make 1 pool or are they kept entirely separate?

    All of these are ramifications of placing 2 domains under 1 regent.

    And yes it is a rules definition (matched by rules mechanics).

    The point of the line from the rules (which is more color than actual mechanic):

    "Domains are rarely made up of one kind of holding and usually include several elements."

    Is to reflect the different "elements" and different kinds of holdings that a single regent controls in his domain.

    The use of the word element encompases the different political aspects you are bringing up.

    Otherwise almost all landed regents actually rule multiple domains.

    Endier - 1 is the land and law itself and the other is the vast trade network.

    Illien - sources and land

    Any landed source regent falls under the break up of domains, etc.
    Duane Eggert

  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    First let's agree that there is a difference between rules (which are a sad neccesity) and role playing, (which is what the game is really all about), and that things which are the same in the rules doen't have to be the same in the role play world. Most weapons have very similar or identical stats (d8 damage, x2 or x3 threat), but no matter how often you reproduce the weapons tables, you won't convince me that they should be described the same way in the game.

    Second, you seem to think that holding types have something to do with this. I don't know where you got the idea that I see a Talinie / NIT division because of holding types. If one care's to read the history of the NIT (found not only in the Talinie PS, but now on the wiki as well) we find that during the so-called wasted centuries, various factions of priests fought, allied with useful nobles. Fitzalan unified the priests and formed the NIT. But what of we were playing a game where this had just happened? It would be useful to say we might have as many domains as their were factions, unified, perhaps only temporarily by the single regent. "Can you unify the temples like Fitzalan did?"

    Any temple domain with different ideologies, conflicting sets of identities, and recognizably different sets of organizations, even though all the holdings are of one type, can usefully be described as two domains.

    It just happens that the two different organizations have different holding types, but that's a coincidence. What is important is that of the regent forgets she has two distinct constituancies to please, these two organizations will split.

    Seperate data sheets and treasuries? That would depend on how bad the division was, how close to schism the two organizations were. I would never make the players do that (indeed any implication that the role play stuff should be mirrored in rules and mechanics is pure tedium). But a wise player might decide its prudent to keep track of who brought what into an organization that contains members who would resent too much of the resources going to "the other guy's" projects. Spending several seasons of Talinie's tax income on a luxurious temple while ignoring state projects would be a real problem for unity in the realm.

    From a strict rules perspective, there is nothing mechanically that says Talinie and the NIT are two organizations. From a role playing perspective, I don't know how you can read the Talinie PS and not see tension and conflict within Thuriene Donalls organization. The best domestic conflicts in any realm pit two constituancies against one another. Who does the ruler please, and can he make everyone satisfied? Good problems for united realms, hybrid realms, realms on the brink of splitting up.

    Great captain events can be resolved by random selections of holdings in random provinces, or they can make use of already fleshed out clevages in a player's organization.

    At the end of this post it dawns on me that it really comes down to whether you want to empasize the player's emersion into the character's experience, or encourage meta-game thinking instead. If I could do it, I wouldn't tell the players what game system I was using so that they would focus on their characters rather than on the rules (you know, "rule" is a four letter word).

    At the end of the day, I need some way to keep track of how bad the hit was, how much money the province earned, or how many times you can try to out bid the other guy, but to try and understand what a domain is and how it works by looking to the rules, instead of the PS descriptions sounds more like Risk than it does any role playing game.

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