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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    I like the idea of not explaining the game system to players - one of the best D&D games I ever played the DM kept the character sheets - we got told 'wow that blow really kncocked you back' and the like but never really knew how strong/weak we were compared to our foes - it kept us on our toes constantly! It doesn't work so well with some players (those who love to crunch the odds etc) and is even more work for the hard-pressed GM but can be a lot of fun.

    Generally speaking, (as I GM over 12 different RPGs) I find that players have more fun and so does the GM in games where the players don't know the rules. I've found this statement to be true in almost every RPG I've ever played or ran. It has something to do with the fact that without rules knowledge the players can only be "in character". The look for ways to operate within the scope of character interaction.

    In the case of DnD I can safely say that most of the time I prefer other RPGs to it because the players aren't given a "player's rulebook". Birthright and Ravenloft may be the only reasons why I'll ever play DnD.
    Last edited by Sinister; 12-05-2007 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #32
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    Thanks for answering my question.

    To play out the differences between the two sides of the domain, NIT and Talinie, I guess I should mix up the random events that are rolled. One domain turn the random event affects NIT, the next Talnine holdings. What do you guys think?

    Maybe after a Great Captain random event, I could roll twice for random events, one for each side, as a way to spice up the division between the two. I mean look what's going on with the government of Belgium in RL right now.

    Steve
    What I would do - is roll 1 random event for the regent.

    Depending on the result and how the regent has been focusing his/her attention in the past would determine what specifically happens and where (as in what aspect of the domain) to apply it to.

    This puts the random events back into the hands of the DM (as always intended), has the DM make determinations of the attitude/loyalty of the domain (and parts of it) (also as always intended) and then gives the DM an opportunity to insert future (or effects from past) events.

    IMO random events are deliberately "vague" in what they entail and are designed to reflect "pressures", "ramifications of actions or inactions" and "introductions of story arcs".

    Personally I have always hated random encounters and see the random events structure as an off shoot of that poor concept.

    IMO random events are rarely "random" and do not happen with the frequency that D&D has enforced - either on the domain scale or on the encounter scale. They should be used primarily for "background filler" and to "introduce new things and directions" but should not be the focus of the game, which they tend to do if handled per the book. Applying more than 1 random event to single character only goes to enforce this to an extreme.

    I have a friend who runs a game (that I left due in part to this issue) who had very little to no story arc built in. The sessions were once random encounter after another - all unrelated to anything going on in the rest of the "world". When combined with his enforcement of the 3.5 training options and spending gp to gain class level benefits this crippled the game - since there is in general very little "treasure" associated with random encounters. I quite the game in order to maintain our friendship since we were becoming more and more argumentative about his "house-rules" and how they were not at all though out or applied, and they were routinely inserted at the "last minute".
    Duane Eggert

  3. #33
    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    When you begin a new game, do you develop a story arc for each NPC regent that is within or near the PC's realms? Or do you try to work the NPC regent's in one at atime?

  4. #34
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    When you begin a new game, do you develop a story arc for each NPC regent that is within or near the PC's realms? Or do you try to work the NPC regent's in one at atime?
    I give major NPCs a "reason" and "motive" for what they do.

    Most of the rest stays "behind the scenes" and I adjust them based on what is going on with the PCs.

    I do not, however, specifically have NPCs target PCs - unless there is a "background" reason for so doing.

    That is I work in the PCs "background" into their relationship with the major NPCs.

    I require my players to give me a background of the chracter before play. Where they came from, what major things they've done to justify what they are and what feats, skills, classes they have. I also give an xp award based on this.

    For example in my last 2nd ed game - I had one PC be the regnet of Roesone, one the prefect of the IHH, one a paladin of Cuircean (from nearby Osoerde), one the regent of Endier and 2 be guild regents.

    I gave each of them staring holding, GB and RP to "balance" the players out.

    I adjusted each's background submitted to better mesh with each other.

    The Roesone regent - ended up being the the "true love of Marlae" and her former chief of the guard. When she died as reulst of incursions of the spider's forces things happened. Her brother was the PC's "best friend" as part of his background. The investiture failed to transfer to the borther and the land chose the PC instead. The brother went into exile (but reappeared much later to aid is "best friend". The former prefect of the IHH went into self-imposed exile and turned things over to his "chief assistant" the.

    The land rejected the brother because he was not worthy yet. Marlae was pregnant when she died, with the PC's child (unknown to all prior to the death). The Roesone regent PC, the IHH regent PC and the former prefect all knew about this "bastard child". And thus one of the "secrets". This set up a lot of built in motivations.

    The paladin PC was sent to Roesone by his higher ups for safety (he was being targeted by Jason Renach for supporting William Moergan. Basically the temples in Osoerde were split up and the paladin received some but still tentatively served the prefect in Osoerde (a sort of semi-vassel arrangement).

    The Endier split up was very complicated. The accidental death of Guilder Kalien" and the split up of his domain to his three surviving chief Lts contained a lot of built in motivation and intrigue.

    I started out with the landed regent getting a Lt (that was the chief NPC in Blood Hungary) - so that advneture was set up early on.

    So a lot of things were "set up" early and how they played out depended on the PC's actions.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #35
    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    For example in my last 2nd ed game - I had one PC be the regnet of Roesone, one the prefect of the IHH, one a paladin of Cuircean (from nearby Osoerde), one the regent of Endier and 2 be guild regents.
    ...
    So a lot of things were "set up" early and how they played out depended on the PC's actions.
    I think I'm starting to get it how this all works together, thanks. During this game, by your setup/design who were the major NPC regents that the PCs were allied with? Who were the enemy regents?
    .....
    I guess I don't know the proper balance for NPC actions. To me, an NPC regent would spend his first several actions maxing out holding levels where possible. Just like I would as a player. Do you have regents jump into espionage/diplomacy actions first, then work on raising holding levels before getting around to contest actions?

  6. #36
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    I think I'm starting to get it how this all works together, thanks. During this game, by your setup/design who were the major NPC regents that the PCs were allied with? Who were the enemy regents?
    .....
    I almost always start with a large diplomatic "party" where the "new" regents are being set up - basically just after their investiture.

    I make them spend their first action on Diplomacy. This was a good chance for role-playing by introducing the major NPC regents.

    But they can accomplish a lot of specific actions with this first one.

    I had the regents from the surrounding realms all show up. Most were looking to set up a continuance of their "arrangements" with the former regents. O previous "arrangement" was considered still applicable until "agreed to" with the new regents. Some were looking for "better deals" or even some "deals" at all.

    I had the new PC regent of Endier trying to set up a trade agreement with the Queen of Aerenwe. But when he brought up lumbering from the Queen's territories, things went south quickly. This set the tone for the relationship between those two Regents from that point on, while the new Regent of Roesone took a different tact and tried to ensure some sort of mutal defense alliance and most definitely never touch the Erbannian. Got good marks from the Queen on his insistance to that point.


    I guess I don't know the proper balance for NPC actions. To me, an NPC regent would spend his first several actions maxing out holding levels where possible. Just like I would as a player. Do you have regents jump into espionage/diplomacy actions first, then work on raising holding levels before getting around to contest actions?
    It depends on the situation. IMG I basically used the regents and domains as written in the Ruins of Empire and made some adjustments accordingly.

    Never, ever underestimate the importance of Diplomacy. It can accomplish more things that people think of at first glance.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #37
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    I'm getting ready to start a 12 player two kingdom game. here's what I've done so far:

    1. I choose Endier and Medoere as kingdoms because they are close to each other (but not next door) and they are two good center's of politics and there were two sourcebooks done on them. Also while they can certainly wage war on each other, the have a lot of common enemies (spider, ghoere, possibly diemed).

    2. Reorganized the realms a bit to fit the players choices of characters, so for instance in Medoere I dropped the power of the RCS just a little to make it possible for my haelyn paladin to compete for some temple holdings.

    3. Came up with an idea of which character's will eventually rule and why made sure that all characters would have a semi easy time of establishing holdings (dealing with 90% new players)



    My game will basically run like this. Once every two weeks I'll meet with a realm to run an adventure, after that adventure they have until the next adventure to take a domain action. This action is scheduled with me and they have two choices:

    1. Just take 10 minutes tell me what they want to do and roll it. While not my favorite option I am dealing with a bunch of 30 year olds playing who have real lives and things to do.

    2. Role play out your domain turn which could take 2-4 hours but you get XP for role playing.

    Basically means that I'm rewarding people who put in the time and effort with xp but I'm not nerfing holdings because people don't have time. Hopefully the system will encourage more people to take the time to RPG things out. Typically I roll random events a couple days before I meet with people and do random events then to.

  8. #38
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    When you begin a new game, do you develop a story arc for each NPC regent that is within or near the PC's realms? Or do you try to work the NPC regent's in one at atime?
    Both. You can have a general idea what a regent is going to want to do, and build some broad arcs pretty quickly, but once the players start taking action it becomes easy to start refining and developing the NPC's and what they are doing. I generally put NPC's into one of three categories, friend, enemy, could-go-either-way. And I put could-go-either-way NPC's in organizations belonging to friends and enemies. This allows the PC's to solidify relationships by winning over NPC's who were ambivilant, or turn around enemies because of friends they made there, or even lose an ally because of enemies made.

    So, then I try and introduce the other regents one at a time. It can be easier to do them all at once using a marriage event (like in the back of Ruins of Empire) or the Sword and the Crown, but generally its too much to take in, and the NPC's don't get properly fleshed out. Doing it one at a time works best.

    Once the PC's know their neighbors, generally they start the ball rolling and keep it rolling on their own. As you might have surmised, I like to keep more balls in the air than many DM's, because otherwise the world looks exceptionally calm. Consider that if the only events that go on happen at the PC's pace of action (three or four actions per season) then one really must wonder if the neighbors spend their whole lives napping. Take Roesone, for example. Diemed is a hostile enemy who wants to recapture his lost provinces (most of Roesone, Diemed, and Ilien). You can expect he'll be bothering Roesone a lot. Then there is Ghoere. Ghoere has other enemies and projects, so he might menace Roesone about a third of the time (including things that don't require action, like improving fortifications on his side of the border). So that should occupy Roesone full time. But our ruler has two allies and a friendly neutral nearby and a small border with Osoerde, a bad boy realm who won't directly threaten Roesone (at least at the start) but might make the neighborhood more dangerous. Allies make demands on their friends time. This is the realm equivalent of asking for help on moving day, asking to be picked up at the auto shop, watch my dog while I'm out of town, and so on. You can say no to this stuff, but if you always say no, your friends start looking for better friends. A lot of this is nicely handled with random events.

    For those of us who would use a lot of random events, use this example. I roll a serious one -say assasination- and I like it, but I also think I don't want to put it to close to the regent, because we already have things to do and I don't want to derail that. So the assasination takes place in a friendly realm, say Medoere, and a minor official, say a sheriff, is killed. Evidence (letters, a badge, a gasped last word, an eyewitness) links the assassin back to Roesone. The object here is for the regent to take a moment and delegate. I think that irdeggman is assuming that all random events take a domain action and impose penalties for failure, but it doesn't have to be that way. Once in a while I use random events that require adventure actions and risk a loss of regency, but most of the time I see a random event as being a way to describe the world around the players so that they learn more about their fellow regents (and the way the world works) without having to deal directly with them. So back to my example, maybe I decide that el-Hadid is behind the assassination because the sheriff was about to expose some criminal activities of Port of Call Exchange (smuggling, say). The PC might decide to do nothing (sorry, busy), in which case relations with Medoere decline slightly. In this case the assassination is never solved. The PC might delegate, telling local law officials to cooperate and investigate. In this case, several months later (depending on dice) some law official tells the PC that the assassination is solved, explains it all to the PC, and the PC has now given minor aide to Medoere and knows something about el-Hadid. Or the PC can get directly involved, solve the mystery as an adventure and impress Medoere with the value of friendship with the PC. I think there should be a lot of events like this, small events that test the PC's reaction, and teaches the PC about the neighbors without putting the PC in an act or pay-for-it situation.

    Based on player reactions to each of their NPC neighbors, you will start to get story ideas for each of them. Some may directly involve the PC's, some may involve them directly, others will take place on their other side of their realm.

    Here is another example of how I keep the world busy without requiring action from the PC's. Osoerde can menace Aerenwe with contest actions and espionage actions, and there are always rumors of war. Roesone will probably prefer a strong Aerenwe as a neighbor to an enlarged Osoerde (although players can surprise you) and will feel at least a little pressure to bolster Osoerede at least once in a while. Osoerde might frame Roesone for things every now and then, might use Roesone as a base to spy on Aerenwe, and might put bandits in the Erbannien through Roesone. So while all of this is easy to ignore, since Roesone might never be harmed, many PC's will feel like they should help. Especially if you paint Jaison Raenech as especially villainous.

    The key to keeping the world busy without overtaxing the world is to make a lot of stuff happeing on the perifery of the PC's world. If you make the ruler the center of your thinking about what is happening in the world (random events per ruler, consequences for the ruler, number turns available for the ruler) then there isn't much happening. If you think instead about the domain as the center of what is happening, you still want to be aware of what the ruler can handle (resources, including time) but you can spend time describing stuff that's happening because 1) it makes the world seem more real, 2) it explains how you will do stuff without giving the players a rulebook and 3) it is a way to describe all of the other rulers without handing someone a book.

  9. #39
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    Being somewhat lazy when thinking about plots and the like for a micro example campagin I rolled up random events for the local regents and then thought about how they might tie together - an intrigue followed by corruption and then a slew of monster/brigands would mutate from a random event series into regent B convincing a corrupt official to sell weapons intended for the army to the local gnoll and orog tribes - when he's stopped the goblinoids go raiding for example.

    Random events should be used whenever convenient - if players are struggling against a plot let a random event (properly handled) give them some clues to the plot as it is disrupted. If the random event would get in the way ignore it or have it dealt with by a minion who has been under-utilised lately.

    For a regent with multiple organisations within their domain, I'd use it to remind them of the different agenda's of the organisations - so if they have spent a lot of time on the law holdings have the trouble arise in the guild holdings and the like.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    irdeggman schrieb:
    > IMO - rolling more than one random event for a single regent
    > is just plain harsh. This would keep the player constantly
    > dealing with them, regardless of domain size or structure.

    Or it would emphasize that no single ruler can rule a huge realm consisting of different holding types alone without huge and numerous problems. It also emphasizes the value of vassals who have actions of their own to take care for local random events.
    My thoughts exactly. The version of this oft-repeated discussion which I remember best is so old it's not even on this website: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa...1&F=&S=&P=6688 dates from April 7, 2000, and included, among others, Michael Romes and Gary Foss. =)

    Gary's suggestion at the time was number of events per season = (number of provinces + half number of holdings) / 6. Do you still use that? Has anyone else tried similar things?

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