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Thread: Undead in BRCS

  1. #21
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:08 PM 11/28/2007, irdeggman wrote:

    >Be careful about bring in the issue of "souls" as a point of
    >reference for whether or not a creature should have a bloodline.
    >
    >In 2nd ed there was a big issue about elves and souls (this was a
    >lot of the reasoning in why it was more difficult to ressurrect them
    >in overall D&D).
    >
    >There are also a fair amount of blooded animals referenced. As far
    >as I know no one is assuming an animal has a "soul" in this regard.
    >
    >But the advise to be careful in how applying such a view point is
    >very legitimate.

    I long ago ruled that the Sidhe have "spirits" and other races have
    "souls" in BR for my own campaigns, and that ruling has never
    seriously been an issue despite some rather elaborate extrapolation
    of what it means to the respective characters after death. In this
    case, I think differentiating between living and undead is
    sufficient. The point about elves having a "spirit" has been brought
    up in relation to BR elves in the past, but it hasn`t been related to
    whether they could have a bloodline or not since that issue is
    definitively not at issue given the number of them. That the undead
    do not have a "soul" or a "spirit" in the sense that the living do,
    however, works as a pretty good explanation for why there are no
    undead scions in any of the published materials. The NPCs who are
    "undead" and blooded (usually awnsheghlien) have origins that
    illustrate they are still "living" beings in the same way that
    animals, elves and mortals are, so whatever it is that the living
    beings have that undead do not is what allows a character to have a bloodline.

    Otherwise, if one looks at the published materials, one really has to
    wonder why there are no undead scions. No scion ever died in the
    last 1,500 years of the setting and returned as a ghoul, ghast,
    shadow, wraith, specter, (non-awnshegh) banshee? Those are just the
    ones listed in the Rulebook. Other kinds of undead are possible in
    BR, like liches or vampires, yet I can think of not one standard D&D
    undead scion. Because the undead don`t age such a character would
    still be around (barring, of course, being killed outright.) So it
    seems pretty unlikely for there to be undead scions if it is normally possible.

    In fact, the more I think on it, the more problems I see with the
    idea of allowing undead scions. Though I don`t think anyone would
    quibble with the difference between being animated undead and undead
    in the sense of other, more powerful undead, it`d be pretty
    problematic if a scion could be simply animated as a zombie or
    skeleton and retain his bloodline. Granted, the big problem with
    that example is that it would make the undead subservient to the
    animating mage/priest, but there are similar concepts in other undead
    types since most can be dominated in one way or another, so an undead
    scion could be enthralled by another undead "master" or magic
    wielding character.

    In BR, of course, we also have an issue with the undead populations
    of the Shadow World that mirrors the world of light. If undead were
    capable of having a bloodline wouldn`t some undead in the SW have
    attained a bloodline at some point and created the SW equivalent of a
    domain with the populace made up entirely of undead creatures in a
    way that parallels Cerilia? Honestly, I like the idea of the SW
    mimicking the world of light in this way--there`s definitely a cool
    quality to all the BR regents represented by the equivalents as
    various undead types--but one would think it`d be mentioned in such a
    form at some point in the existing materials if it were possible.

    Gary

  2. #22
    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    How about the following:

    A regent dies, without having designated an heir.
    His regency connection to his holdings is dissolved, and given to the land or by the land to someone else.
    His bloodline stays with the body as long as the body stays intact.
    If the body is burnt, the bloodline is lost.
    If the body is buried, the bloodline is gradually lost.
    If the body is resurrected, it maintains whatever bloodline it had before the resurrection.
    If the body is reincarnated, it gets no bloodline except any given to the new body.
    If the body is made into an undead for some reason, treat it like resurrection.

    Bloodtheft can be performed on any creature that has a bloodline. Stabbing the heart is the obvious method for humanoids, but for undead and animals, it might be a little more awkward to work out.

    Bloodtheft cannot be performed on a dead body. The body must be "living" or sentient.

    Sorontar

  3. #23
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Those are nice ideas, but I would suggest clarifying "made into undead" to be "made into sentient undead". After all, if the corpse is returned as a zombie or skeleton (or perhaps even a ghoul), then they should still be considered dead. The same goes for incorporeal undead - they should be assumed to have a destroyed body.

  4. #24
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Incorporeal undead might well be corporeal in the Shadow World.

  5. #25
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    Gary schrieb:
    > At 01:18 PM 11/28/2007, Sinister wrote:
    >
    >> This imo is dumb. So what this is saying is that the local land
    >> refuses you but you can go somewhere else and rule?
    >
    > Like a lot of 2e BR materials it does open up a can of worms.... It`s
    > most likely a way to dealing with the problem of a resurrected regent
    > dealing with his heir, and the specifics of that rational are just not
    > addressed. Personally, I think it would be better characterized as
    > the possession of a deceased regent`s domain as having "moved on"
    > rather than the domain itself actually rejecting that regent. If the
    > heir chose to simply return the realm there is the appropriate
    > investiture possibility. The regent is the focus of the domain`s
    > continuity, so when the focus is located on another point the previous
    > regent is simply "out of the loop" not actually rejected per se.
    >
    The 2E can of worms was not that large. One has to remember that the 2E
    material assumed only a small percentage of characters with higher
    levels in the population and all priests/clerics in Birthright were
    specialty priests and only a handful of gods granted the major healing
    sphere which included to raise the dead - and those few highlevel
    clerics who followed the few gods granting the major healing sphere
    would refuse to do so on a regular basis.

  6. #26
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:40 AM 11/29/2007, you wrote:

    >Those are nice ideas, but I would suggest clarifying "made into
    >undead" to be "made into sentient undead". After all, if the corpse
    >is returned as a zombie or skeleton (or perhaps even a ghoul), then
    >they should still be considered dead. The same goes for incorporeal
    >undead - they should be assumed to have a destroyed body.

    When it comes to even sentient undead I think there should be
    limitations. Note, for example, the text in the 3.5 MM under ghouls
    that notes that a character who becomes a ghoul as a result of Ghoul
    Fever "retains none of the abilities it possessed in life." That
    pretty much reads to me like a scion who becomes a ghoul won`t have a
    bloodline any more. Ghasts would work the same way.

    Regardless of how ghouls and ghasts are treated, I still think
    there`s a real problem in allowing undead scions based on any of the
    undead types that can "create spawn." For example, when wights are
    created are under the control of the wight who killed their mortal
    body, and that lasts until death. In BR giving an unblooded creature
    that kind of control over a scion is problematic since they could
    order their slaves to go out and create domains, commit bloodtheft,
    whatever. The same problem exists for shadows, vampires and
    spectres. Why aren`t there such existing undead in the BR setting
    maybe controlled by some "commoner" undead?

    Gary

  7. #27
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Undead seem to be more fitting in the Shadow World, where as other have mentioned, they might naturally rule domains. For existing undead types, they can involve special circumstances, or have the condition of being, say a lich, but he's not a lich. To me this feels like a bit of deux ex machina. The DM wants a blooded lich, but calls him by another name, say, the Lost, to avoid the reproducability of a blooded lich character.

    I think its easier to impose the more familiar undead limits firmly. For example, how much time does the Magian or Vampire spend in the daylight world compared to the Shadow World? Running a domain from across the evenaescence might be difficult without being impossible. A lot of solutions can be in play here. Such characters might attempt to weaken the barrier between worlds to reduce penalties to domain actions, and this can drain time, effort, and resources. In their own "haunted" domains, they might be terribly powerful and a daylight regent attempting to perform actions might have penalties, but these characters can't effectively expand swiftly because of the difficulties of ruling across the barrier.

    Normally the expanation of why undead don't come to dominate the world concerns their natural vulnerabilities. Play that up rather than an all out ban, unless you don't like undead to begin with. If the campaign's one lich and vampire are basically unique, then problem solved.

    Characters like undead tend to be brittle. To get all their cool powers, they end up with an ECL that makes them especially vulnerable to attacks where they don't have supernatural defenses.

    So, in the final analysis, I don't think they are game breaking, if you play up the liabilities and don't allow easy fixes to those.

  8. #28
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:38 AM 11/29/2007, kgauck wrote:

    >Characters like undead tend to be brittle. To get all their cool
    >powers, they end up with an ECL that makes them especially
    >vulnerable to attacks where they don`t have supernatural defenses.

    The balance of undead powers versus vulnerabilities isn`t really what
    I see as the problem for BR. After all, bloodline itself creates its
    own sorts of powers and vulnerabilities, and the ahn/ehrsheghlien
    transformation works in a similar fashion.

    The problem is the enslavement created by the "create spawn" function
    that several undead have. BR has a system of LTs/cohorts and
    vassalage. The undead ability to create absolutely subservient
    minions takes that process to another level, which could be
    problematical. If the conclusion of a conflict between two scions is
    not bloodtheft, but the abject enslavement of the defeated scion then
    we`re into a whole different process at the domain level since that
    defeated scion can become a kind of "super vassal" to the victor
    because he`ll never switch sides or otherwise contradict his
    "master." I`m very leery of anything that is as absolute as that
    interacting with the domain level of play.

    Gary

  9. #29
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    I spawn, therefore I have 3 more actions a season...
    I'm figuring that the spawn may be less of an issue than people fear - I note that a vassal regent (source aside) must command the loyalty of a large body of people and be able to interact effectively with them, which requires constant judgment calls and modifications to plans which requires either great autonomy or immediate access and control - an undead could be shadow behind the throne easily, but would not have time to effectively manage a dozen thrones at once!

    Bloodline and death
    In terms of bloodline and death, Bloodspawn talks about the awnsheghlien that died and now serve the Cold Rider - they lost half their bloodline on death (the maximum loss possible via bloodsilver) and the rest remained available to the spirit version of the awnie in the shadow world. I'd say that the bloodline of Azrai will find some way - any way - to continue and have some intriguing game impacts in terms of the land's choice (who sleeps easily the night the king's murderer is hanged?)

    Resurrection
    I shy away from any kind of resurrection magic other than death's door and similar healing so avoid some of the problems mentioned, generally though I'd say that any resurrection is so powerful and personal an intervention of a deity that the character should rise with the bloodline of the raising deity to some degree - which would also make priests wary of casting it. Being brutal I rule that clones and the like have no bloodline...

    Awnmebhaighl
    In terms of awnmebhaighl I'd accept the earlier point, the shadow world may dominate the spirit world but the game is enriched by the survival - at least in parts - by the spirit world. That said I'd be just as happy to see effects on Cerilia from close ties to the spirit world awnmebhaighl as I would for the shadow world - the PC regent who invades the Sielwode may regret their assumption that the woods resources are merely of the mortal world!

  10. #30
    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 02:14 PM 11/29/2007, AndrewTall wrote:

    >I`m figuring that the spawn may be less of an issue than people fear
    >- I note that a vassal regent (source aside) must command the
    >loyalty of a large body of people and be able to interact
    >effectively with them, which requires constant judgment calls and
    >modifications to plans which requires either great autonomy or
    >immediate access and control - an undead could be shadow behind the
    >throne easily, but would not have time to effectively manage a dozen
    >thrones at once!

    Well, I`m not up on the details of undead time management, but it
    seems to me the nature of a spawn relationship is that it would make
    the process go much more quickly. No committee meetings, no
    explanations or negotiations. Plus, if one doesn`t need to do normal
    mortal activities like eat and sleep (I don`t think Shadows do
    either...) then as undead one has more time on one`s necrotic hands....

    Gary

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