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Thread: Undead in BRCS

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Book of Priestcraft pg 83 “Regent death and resurrection

    “When a regent character dies, the domain power he holds immediately transfers to his heir, whether the heir is designated, undesignated, or chosen on the spot by the land. The regent’s bloodline may also be transferred if he has designated an heir to receive it. Should the regent be returned to life at some later time by the use of magic, the former regent does not regain his lost domain; it remains in the hands of his successor. His death severed the link between land and king, and from that point forward, he can never be invested as the ruler of his former domain again, since the land will refuse him. The resurrected character could possible win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away be designation before his death). Unless he builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not a regent.”
    Duane Eggert

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    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Book of Priestcraft pg 83 “Regent death and resurrection

    [COLOR=white"The resurrected character could possible win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away be designation before his death). Unless he builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not a regent.”[/COLOR]
    So, it is possible for a raised undead to retain his bloodline? Would the undead be subject to bloodline theft by a PC?

    What of allowing undead PCs via rules from the Libris Mortis?

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:29 AM 11/28/2007, irdeggman wrote:

    >Book of Priestcraft pg 83 "Regent death and resurrection"
    >
    >"When a regent character dies, the domain power he holds immediately
    >transfers to his heir, whether the heir is designated, undesignated,
    >or chosen on the spot by the land. The regent`s bloodline may also
    >be transferred if he has designated an heir to receive it. Should
    >the regent be returned to life at some later time by the use of
    >magic, the former regent does not regain his lost domain; it remains
    >in the hands of his successor. His death severed the link between
    >land and king, and from that point forward, he can never be invested
    >as the ruler of his former domain again, since the land will refuse
    >him. The resurrected character could possible win a new domain
    >elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he
    >willingly gave it away be designation before his death). Unless he
    >builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not a regent."

    I stand corrected.

    Gary

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 08:58 AM 11/28/2007, stv2brown1988 wrote:

    >So, it is possible for a raised undead to retain his
    >bloodline? Would the undead be subject to bloodline theft by a PC?

    Regardless of whether a scion retains his bloodline when raised from
    the dead, whether a character does or not when raised as an undead is
    still a matter of interpretation. Does a creature who is raised as
    an undead still have the divine bloodline of its previous human
    form. A human being "brought back" is demonstrably different from
    one "raised as undead" and there are matters having to do with how
    one views the undead as being animated, having a "soul" in the sense
    that humans do, if they are "spirited" in some other, non-permanent
    way, or if they are simply "empowered" by a negative energy that
    mimics any of those processes.

    One could go any which way with such interpretations and allow an
    undead scion or not. The best argument IMO to oppose the concept is
    that there aren`t any extant or historical undead scions in the
    existing material and if it were possible then it surely would have
    happened at some point in the past 1,500 years, especially
    considering the immortal nature of those characters. The best BR
    specific campaign theme argument is simply that one should be careful
    "mixing genres" within the setting. That is, there are undead themes
    and there are bloodline based themes, and it makes a certain sense to
    keep them separate in order to avoid diffusing the campaign themes.

    Gary

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Its not a clear case, but the spectral scion, who haunts in regards to those who stole his bloodline, suggest the spectre would expect to have his bloodline. The again, there might be horse scions who haunt in regards to the loss of their horse as well. My suspicion is that bloodline transcends death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    Book of Priestcraft pg 83 “Regent death and resurrection

    “When a regent character dies, the domain power he holds immediately transfers to his heir, whether the heir is designated, undesignated, or chosen on the spot by the land. The regent’s bloodline may also be transferred if he has designated an heir to receive it. Should the regent be returned to life at some later time by the use of magic, the former regent does not regain his lost domain; it remains in the hands of his successor. His death severed the link between land and king, and from that point forward, he can never be invested as the ruler of his former domain again, since the land will refuse him. The resurrected character could possible win a new domain elsewhere in Cerilia, since he retains his bloodline (unless he willingly gave it away be designation before his death). Unless he builds a new domain, he is treated as a scion and not a regent.”
    This imo is dumb. So what this is saying is that the local land refuses you but you can go somewhere else and rule?

    what if I die and come back and change from a priest to a fighter? Can I hold law holdings and become regent in those lands that refuse me as a priest? Can I overthrow my former theocracy and rule it as a dukedom?

    I'm just going to say you die, your bloodline is done. Keeps people from wanting to raise the dead anyhoo.

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinister View Post
    This imo is dumb. So what this is saying is that the local land refuses you but you can go somewhere else and rule?

    what if I die and come back and change from a priest to a fighter? Can I hold law holdings and become regent in those lands that refuse me as a priest? Can I overthrow my former theocracy and rule it as a dukedom?

    I'm just going to say you die, your bloodline is done. Keeps people from wanting to raise the dead anyhoo.
    I am not going to disagree with the "refuse" and "never" get it back comment.

    I too think this is not good or well though out (but it was what was published in 2nd ed).

    Personally I think that the tie is immediately broken - but that the scion must once again "earn" his regency back.

    All I was doing was pointing out that the act of dying in and of itself did not remove a scion's bloodline in any edition of BR.
    Duane Eggert

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    At 08:58 AM 11/28/2007, stv2brown1988 wrote:

    >So, it is possible for a raised undead to retain his
    >bloodline? Would the undead be subject to bloodline theft by a PC?

    Regardless of whether a scion retains his bloodline when raised from
    the dead, whether a character does or not when raised as an undead is
    still a matter of interpretation. Does a creature who is raised as
    an undead still have the divine bloodline of its previous human
    form. A human being "brought back" is demonstrably different from
    one "raised as undead" and there are matters having to do with how
    one views the undead as being animated, having a "soul" in the sense
    that humans do, if they are "spirited" in some other, non-permanent
    way, or if they are simply "empowered" by a negative energy that
    mimics any of those processes.

    One could go any which way with such interpretations and allow an
    undead scion or not. The best argument IMO to oppose the concept is
    that there aren`t any extant or historical undead scions in the
    existing material and if it were possible then it surely would have
    happened at some point in the past 1,500 years, especially
    considering the immortal nature of those characters. The best BR
    specific campaign theme argument is simply that one should be careful
    "mixing genres" within the setting. That is, there are undead themes
    and there are bloodline based themes, and it makes a certain sense to
    keep them separate in order to avoid diffusing the campaign themes.

    Gary
    Be careful about bring in the issue of "souls" as a point of reference for whether or not a creature should have a bloodline.

    In 2nd ed there was a big issue about elves and souls (this was a lot of the reasoning in why it was more difficult to ressurrect them in overall D&D).

    There are also a fair amount of blooded animals referenced. As far as I know no one is assuming an animal has a "soul" in this regard.

    But the advise to be careful in how applying such a view point is very legitimate.

    One thing is clear though - merely dying does not automatically remove a scion's bloodline.
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 01:18 PM 11/28/2007, Sinister wrote:

    >This imo is dumb. So what this is saying is that the local land
    >refuses you but you can go somewhere else and rule?

    Like a lot of 2e BR materials it does open up a can of
    worms.... It`s most likely a way to dealing with the problem of a
    resurrected regent dealing with his heir, and the specifics of that
    rational are just not addressed. Personally, I think it would be
    better characterized as the possession of a deceased regent`s domain
    as having "moved on" rather than the domain itself actually rejecting
    that regent. If the heir chose to simply return the realm there is
    the appropriate investiture possibility. The regent is the focus of
    the domain`s continuity, so when the focus is located on another
    point the previous regent is simply "out of the loop" not actually
    rejected per se.

    >what if I die and come back and change from a priest to a
    >fighter? Can I hold law holdings and become regent in those lands
    >that refuse me as a priest? Can I overthrow my former theocracy and
    >rule it as a dukedom?

    How do you mean come back changed from a priest to a
    fighter? Reincarnated as opposed to raised?

    Gary

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stv2brown1988 View Post
    So, it is possible for a raised undead to retain his bloodline? Would the undead be subject to bloodline theft by a PC?

    What of allowing undead PCs via rules from the Libris Mortis?
    Gary brings up some good points to consider when attempting to apply this.

    I would maintain that you can perform bloodtheft on any creature with a bloodline. There is no reason not to apply this one, since there is nothing that says any blooded creature is treated differently in this regard.

    Personnally, based on the spectral scion issue - I would go with undead can have bloodlines and if raised (either as an undead or a living creature) you would maintain your bloodline - unless something happened to remove it in some other manner (Investiture, bloodltheft, etc.)

    Now with respect to the BRCS and how it handles the "explosion" issue. I would rule that you would come back with a 0 blood score (if it was absorbed by surrounding creatures - what goes to the land (i.e., is not absorbed) comes back to you if raised), but still have the same strength and derivation as before.
    Duane Eggert

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