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Thread: Undead in BRCS

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    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Undead in BRCS

    Can Undead control/access sources?
    Can they cast Realm Spells?
    Can Undead have a bloodline?
    Can they acquire one after they become Undead via ursurpation (sp?)?
    ----------
    I wanted to know if a Lich could be an arch-rival for a PC source regent.

    Steve

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    The Magian is a lich, the Vampire is a vampire, and the Bansheah is a Bansheah. So, I'd offer a qualified yes.

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    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    The main inhibiting factor is that people lose their bloodline when they die, and you need a bloodline to hold source holdings and gain RP. The Magian bends this with comments about having returned to life - I think the argument is that he, as one of the Lost, never quite died.

    Similarly the Vampire is not an actual undead but an awnsheghlien with similar physical characteristics. The comments on the Banshegh clearly continue Ken's crusade against cute NPC's who just so happen to have the blood of Azrai (and so get labelled awnies by jealous opponents) following his vile slander of the Siren a year or so ago.

    Another possibility is awnmebhaighl - the seeming. Drawing on the magic of the Shadow World rather than that of Cerilia might by ok for an undead given the links between undead and the shadow world generally.

    Alternatively have the undead be brought back to a shadowed form of life via usurpation - the taint of Azrai 'corrupting them' back to a semblance of life to allow it to continue to exist. The 'not quite undead' would then also have a powerful incentive to usurp more scions - kill enough and possibly live again!

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    Why not?

    A bloodline implies that it is either carried in the blood or merely that it is inherent to one's being and transmitted generationally.

    If the divine energy were truly bound to blood, the blood of a living scion could provide some interesting magical properties.

    I think the divine energy is an essence that permeates the mortal soul. In the act of procreation, it is passed on--divine energy is most characterized by creation, so the generation of a child allows a bloodline to grow and spread.

    If the soul departs the body (in death), the divine essence is released as the spirit is ripped from the body. That's how bloodtheft and loss of the bloodline occurs.

    However, sentient undead creatures keep their souls bound to their bodies, animating them. I would say that Azrai's essence in his bloodlines can be preserved through the process into undeath, but not that of any of the other gods. However, undead awnsheghlien cannot spawn progeny.

    I think awnmebhaigl is another good option, but I resist the strong implications I see through most of BRnet to cast the Seeming as an entirely corrupted source of power. There are still supposed to be Faerie Realms--as well as the domains of the gods--that persist in untainted Seeming. This power would simply be the power of True Illusion, or Creation (except that all creation in the Faerie Realm is temporary and changeable, unlike in Aebrynis). Imagine its wielders able to truly shape the environment, bending it to their will and wish, contested only by the contesting influences of others or by their own limitations. The chaotic Fae would leave highly impermanent changes, while a more focused master of Seeming, like the gods, the Lost, or perhaps spectral scions or certain undead and many outsiders, could maintain more stable realities bent to their desires.

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    Member stv2brown1988's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTall View Post
    Another possibility is awnmebhaighl - the seeming. Drawing on the magic of the Shadow World rather than that of Cerilia might by ok for an undead given the links between undead and the shadow world generally.
    I like this idea. Keep the source ratings the same for provinces but the actual source holding and the immediate area surrounding it are corrupted, twisted reflections of pristine wilderness. Like misshapen, unhealthy trees/plants or springs of stagnant, sulphuric water bubbling up to the surface. These areas resist a Druid's ability to restore (protected as a normal source) and force druids to work with spellcasters to return these areas to normal (contest actions/rule source).


    Steve

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    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    A bloodline implies that it is either carried in the blood or merely that it is inherent to one's being and transmitted generationally.

    If the divine energy were truly bound to blood, the blood of a living scion could provide some interesting magical properties.

    I think the divine energy is an essence that permeates the mortal soul. In the act of procreation, it is passed on--divine energy is most characterized by creation, so the generation of a child allows a bloodline to grow and spread.

    If the soul departs the body (in death), the divine essence is released as the spirit is ripped from the body. That's how bloodtheft and loss of the bloodline occurs.

    However, sentient undead creatures keep their souls bound to their bodies, animating them. I would say that Azrai's essence in his bloodlines can be preserved through the process into undeath, but not that of any of the other gods. However, undead awnsheghlien cannot spawn progeny.
    I think you are confusing your mythologies: just as in most real life mythologies there is no place for a shaman sorcerer or the like (which is half the reason for the olden D&D themes were you could only have one class, period), so does in Cerilia the spilling of the blood of the scion confer the theme of obtaining one's power; likewise, after one's death, one loses the right of the divine bloodlines - there is no choice on the matter, and the soul has little bearing on the matter. This is half the reason why resurrection is a touchy subject when it comes to the nobility: the combined issues of the lost bloodline and the line of inheritance makes things more complicated than need be, so most priests do not resurrect nobles with heirs, even if they can.

    Also note here that there is a lot of philosophical and technical debate in-and-out-of -game of the matter of whether the soul still inhabits the undead body, or if it is a perverse life force that deals only with the intellect as the soul awaits whatever is going to happen to it now or later on, still dictated by each individual thesis...

    The greatest example that supports the above are the events described in the novel "The Falcon and The Wolf."

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Just to make it clear.

    Dying does not automatically remove someone's bloodline, it never did.

    Dying does, however, automatically remove one's connection to all holdings.

    Bloodtheft (specifically through using tighmaevril) will remove a bloodline.

    Investiture can remove a bloodline.

    So if one has designated an heir and done the investiture rites ahead of time, when that regent dies everything is transferred accordingly.

    Now as far as preserving one's bloodline in case of something catastrophic.

    The BRCS has the "blood" property for weapons (chapter 8).

    The Book of Regency had the sword of blood that did the same thing.

    Then there is always the tighmaevril weapons way.

    Then all you have to do is "reclaim" your regency. Forced investiture comes to mind.
    Duane Eggert

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    Site Moderator geeman's Avatar
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    At 11:43 AM 11/27/2007, stv2brown1988 wrote:

    >Can Undead control/access sources?
    >
    >Can they cast Realm Spells?
    >
    >Can Undead have a bloodline?
    >
    >Can they acquire one after they become Undead via ursurpation (sp?)?
    >
    >----------
    >
    >I wanted to know if a Lich could be an arch-rival for a PC source regent.

    As Andrew noted, the problem is having undead with a
    bloodline. There are arguments to be made either way.

    Though we have no standard D&D undead in BR with a bloodline, and
    there are lots of undead, there`s nothing I can see in any of the
    published materials to suggest an undead creature could definitively
    NOT have a bloodline. There could be made an argument that certain
    undead (particularly incorporeal ones) cannot have a bloodline if
    they don`t have blood, a heart or even a body in the traditional
    sense. It`d be hard to rationalize very well a simply animated
    undead gaining a bloodline. There could very easily be an awnshegh
    called The Skeleton, but I don`t think it`d be particularly elegant
    for that character to come into existence because of a strange
    usurpation incident involving a typical D&D animated
    skeleton. Rather, a scion might take on skeletal qualities based on
    his transformation into his thematic awnshegh transformation.

    That said, because bloodline vanishes at death, an undead creature is
    going to have to gain one at some point after becoming undead. I
    understand things are a little different in the 3e BRCS when it comes
    to usurpation but in the original materials there was no game
    mechanical way for commoners to gain a bloodline through that method,
    though there were plenty of examples in the published materials of
    such a thing happening, so that`s the most likely
    possibility. However, there are several methods to gain a bloodline,
    and one of the advantages that the DM has in using an undead villain
    is that the immortal nature of the undead means it could have
    acquired that bloodline at any point in the past. One of the ways
    bloodline apparently happened outside the rules is in non-traditional
    methods of usurpation. Drinking the blood, eating the body, somehow
    stealing the physical form of a scion, etc. Some of those methods
    might be particularly appropriate for certain types of undead. In
    and of itself, that`s probably the best argument against undead with
    a bloodline. If it`s possible why hasn`t it happened already? In
    fact, why hasn`t it happened LOTS. With all the blood drinking and
    body eating that happens with such undead as vampires, ghouls and
    ghasts should usurpation have occurred more often if it can happen
    that way at all?

    There are a few BR specific undead and ehrsheghlien (I`m thinking of
    the Spectral Scion and Aurichlacht/the Golden Light) whose existence
    hints that a traditional corporeal body isn`t all that big a deal
    when it comes to bloodline. When it boils right down to it, one of
    the functions of bloodline is as an "X Factor" where anything and
    everything is possible.

    However, if one rules that it is possible, I would be still careful
    with undead scions. For one thing, we already have awnsheghlien who
    represent several of the major undead types, and those characters are
    already set up to be long-term opponents, so making an undead scion
    could easily step on the role of an existing (one might argue
    thematically more important) BR character. When it comes to liches,
    for instance, we already have powerful regents in the Magian and
    Siebharrin "the Lich" from Tuarhieval/Gorgon`s Crown, so a third lich
    character should be demonstrably different from either of those
    characters in order to make him/er distinct from those existing
    NPCs. If you`re going to do such a thing, consider using an actual
    awnshegh in that role, or inventing a whole new take on the awnsheghlien theme.

    Gary

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    Senior Member RaspK_FOG's Avatar
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    Hm... Irdeggman is correct; then how did the young prince receive his birthright (pun intented): no prior ceremony was held?

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    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geeman View Post
    That said, because bloodline vanishes at deathGary
    This is a false statement.

    Never was true in 2nd ed (not withstanding house rules) either.

    It says that a regent's connection to his holdings is broken at death, not that his bloodline vanishes.

    The spectral scions were the result of "bloodtheft" which is something different.
    Duane Eggert

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