Mebhaighl

[blitzmacher]

We're talking about mebhaighl not metamagic, although there might be similarities in my discussion, they are two different things.
Has it occurred to you that it might be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? After all just make the impossible possible and everything becomes possible, logical. Besides, only true limits in life are those we place on ourselves.
[all the wizard can really do is change the currents somewhat to fit his purpose], thats what I have been trying to say all along.
[Further, why would mebhaighl be so incredibly potent on a local scale? It states that the power of a cyclone, or the power of an ancient forest contains a lot of power - not every little nook and cranny. The power of a single tree is far less than what even a 1st-level wizard wields. And that is pretty much all the mebhaighl that is likely to be found on a battlefield in any case; battles don't take place where mebhaighl is strong, in general.]
So by what you are saying to cast a realm spell you would have to cast it at the origin of your source or the terminating point of your ley line.
[Wizards need _time_ - a _lot_ of it, to steer and concentrate mebhaighl enough to create any effects]
Not any effects, realm spells, but as I said earlier it would take longer to cast a spell as such.
[Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.]
This is magic not modern physics.

[Mark_Aurel]

We're talking about mebhaighl not metamagic, although there might be similarities in my discussion, they are two different things.

You want to improve a spell - use metamagic. Metamagic is for improving spells, mebhaighl isn't. It is that simple.

Has it occurred to you that it might be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? After all just make the impossible possible and everything becomes possible, logical. Besides, only true limits in life are those we place on ourselves.

This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.

So by what you are saying to cast a realm spell you would have to cast it at the origin of your source or the terminating point of your ley line.

That would depend on whether you cast it from a ley line or from a source. You need to stay within the province where you cast the spell, regardless.

[Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.]
This is magic not modern physics.

Good - then you would of course agree that mebhaighl isn't some neutral energy source that can be manipulated to fit any purpose, but rather a mystical energy that can only be used for the express purpose stated. This isn't modern physics, nor is it modern industry, so you can't really expect one type of magical energy to be able to transmute itself into another, like energy in physics change their types.

[blitzmacher]

[You want to improve a spell - use metamagic. Metamagic is for improving spells, mebhaighl isn't. It is that simple.]
Because you say so.
[This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.]
If that were true what we are doing now would still be impossible.
[That would depend on whether you cast it from a ley line or from a source. You need to stay within the province where you cast the spell, regardless.]
Of course, you would only be able to cast these spells where you have source holdings or ley lines. It has nothing to do with the battle field having enough mebhaighl, only if that battle field is in a province in which you have a source or ley line.
[then you would of course agree that mebhaighl isn't some neutral energy source that can be manipulated to fit any purpose, but rather a mystical energy that can only be used for the express purpose stated.]
I would only agree that mebhaighl is a mystical energy that can have multiple uses, after all isn't that what makes it MYSTICAL.

[Mark_Aurel]

Of course, you would only be able to cast these spells where you have source holdings or ley lines. It has nothing to do with the battle field having enough mebhaighl, only if that battle field is in a province in which you have a source or ley line.

You tacitly admit the purpose of this entire debate is just trying to tastelessly shift the battle magic debate from one of game mechanics to one of "realism;" this is good. "Realism" is always a good way to argue to change the rules to one's favor or liking. Regardless, the point of pointing out that mebhaighl isn't thickly concentrated anywhere, is that in order to create any noticeable effects with mebhaighl, the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of it, due to its thinness, and that action necessarily also precludes strongly localized effects. You simply can't put mebhaighl into a spell.

I would only agree that mebhaighl is a mystical energy that can have multiple uses, after all isn't that what makes it MYSTICAL.

That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.

[This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.]
If that were true what we are doing now would still be impossible.

This is also a rather silly statement. I can only assume, since your statement isn't very clear, that you are referring to computerized communication? In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.

[blitzmacher]

[is that in order to create any noticeable effects with mebhaighl, the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of it, due to its thinness, and that action necessarily also precludes strongly localized effects. You simply can't put mebhaighl into a spell.]
No, to create greater effects such as realm spells the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of mebhaighl. To enhance a simple spell a wizard would not need near as much mebhaighl, because where not talking about a grand effect, only a larger effect then what the normal spell has, not the grand effect of a realm spell. Your argument that you can't put mebhaighl into a spell sounds to me more like because I said so statement.
[That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.]
What makes something mystical to me is that it is something that cannot be defined, like the mystery of God. You read up on Thermadynamics, I'll stick with gaming.
[In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.]
Thats because impossibilities are always someones perceptions of what they know at the time.

[Mark_Aurel]

No, to create greater effects such as realm spells the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of mebhaighl. To enhance a simple spell a wizard would not need near as much mebhaighl, because where not talking about a grand effect, only a larger effect then what the normal spell has, not the grand effect of a realm spell. Your argument that you can't put mebhaighl into a spell sounds to me more like because I said so statement.

Then you haven't been reading my previous posts. The point is that, because of the nature of mebhaighl, you can't create any lesser effects than a realm spell, nor do it in a shorter time.

[That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.]
What makes something mystical to me is that it is something that cannot be defined, like the mystery of God. You read up on Thermadynamics, I'll stick with gaming.

If you don't know the difference between mystical and mundane, you aren't really qualified to apply any of the labels in question - it would at best be a piece of guesswork. Your way of treating mebhaighl is very mundane and modern, not mystical. Of course, understanding that would also require some understanding of changing cultural paradigms and thought complexes.

[In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.]
Thats because impossibilities are always someones perceptions of what they know at the time.

And all Cerilian wizards know that using mebhaighl for anything else than realm magic is impossible, hence they won't even waste time attempting something else with it.

Given the mystical nature of mebhaighl, of course, it is not something that will readily bend to the will of man, even one possessed of a seed of a god. A man cannot, by his will, change the essence of mebhaighl; he may guide it, steer it, but not change its very nature so that it could be a tool he could wield better for his own practice.

[blitzmacher]

[Then you haven't been reading my previous posts. The point is that, because of the nature of mebhaighl, you can't create any lesser effects than a realm spell, nor do it in a shorter time.]
Obviously you haven't been reading mine.
BR rulebook: By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell.
Nowhere does it say you can't create lesser effects, or say you can only achieve far greater results, just can achieve.
[If you don't know the difference between mystical and mundane, you aren't really qualified to apply any of the labels in question - it would at best be a piece of guesswork. Your way of treating mebhaighl is very mundane and modern, not mystical. Of course, understanding that would also require some understanding of changing cultural paradigms and thought complexes.]
Enlighten me oh wisened one, I am but fodder for your wit.
What a worm I must be to think that something mystical cannot be defined, and that something mundane is defined.
[And all Cerilian wizards know that using mebhaighl for anything else than realm magic is impossible, hence they won't even waste time attempting something else with it.]
They told you this?

[Given the mystical nature of mebhaighl, of course, it is not something that will readily bend to the will of man, even one possessed of a seed of a god. A man cannot, by his will, change the essence of mebhaighl; he may guide it, steer it, but not change its very nature so that it could be a tool he could wield better for his own practice.]
BR rulebook: A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices.

[Mark_Aurel]

Obviously you haven't been reading mine.
BR rulebook: By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell.

Yep. Realm spells.

Nowhere does it say you can't create lesser effects, or say you can only achieve far greater results, just can achieve.

It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.

Enlighten me oh wisened one, I am but fodder for your wit.
What a worm I must be to think that something mystical cannot be defined, and that something mundane is defined.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. In reducing mebhaighl to be merely an energy source for a wizard, rather than the mystical power of the *land* (note emphasis), you are making it very mundane. What else does it do in your campaign - refrigerate the wizard's beer?

They told you this?

It's quite obvious, since they've probably tried it, and found that it doesn't work.

BR rulebook: A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices.

Yep. Allowing him to cast realm spells. It's not a generic problem-solver for the wizard. A quote out of context hardly helps your case.

For the future, try to include the necessary extra linebreaks so your posts are a bit easier to read - the format you currently use is a bit hard to decipher, as it's sometimes hard to tell when a quote ends and where your reply begins.

[blitzmacher]

[It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.]
Then wouldn't it say can only achieve?
[Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.]
I thought this was.[What else does it do in your campaign - refrigerate the wizard's beer?]
[It's quite obvious, since they've probably tried it, and found that it doesn't work.]
Is it quite obvious? Or they tried it and found they could do something even greater than that Realm spells.
[Yep. Allowing him to cast realm spells.]
Nowhere does it say this.
[It's not a generic problem-solver for the wizard.]
Not a problem-solver, merely a natural progression. A wizard first learns magic with catrip spells and gradually build up into bigger and better spells as thier knowledge increases. Assuming this is true how does one make these grand affecting realm spells without first learning to use mebhaighl on a smaller scale, after all thats how D&D game mechanics seem to work, start small as learn get more and better.
[A quote out of context hardly helps your case.]
How is it out of context? it clearly answered your statement, it is straight from the rulebook, and nowhere does it say strickly for realm magic.
[refrigerate the wizard's beer?]
That would depend on what type of beer the wizard drank.
[In reducing mebhaighl to be merely an energy source for a wizard, rather than the mystical power of the *land* (note emphasis), you are making it very mundane.]
Stating that it has one use and one use only is mundane.
Not knowing what all the possibilities are is mystical.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt, with official facts that this can't happen? So far your argument has only been your own perceptions, but I can understand that because nowhere in the rules does it say mebhaighl can only be used it realm spells.

[Mark_Aurel]

[It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.] Then wouldn't it say can only achieve? No - it is the function expressly stated. No other function is stated. Thus, it is all that you can do with it. Is it quite obvious? Or they tried it and found they could do something even greater than that Realm spells. Obviously, this is not part of anything that any of the designers put in. Not a problem-solver, merely a natural progression. A wizard first learns magic with catrip spells and gradually build up into bigger and better spells as thier knowledge increases. Assuming this is true how does one make these grand affecting realm spells without first learning to use mebhaighl on a smaller scale, after all thats how D&D game mechanics seem to work, start small as learn get more and better. There's no natural progression to magic. How is it out of context? it clearly answered your statement, it is straight from the rulebook, and nowhere does it say strickly for realm magic. How dense can you get? It is out of context when you take a part of a larger whole, and try to use it for something entirely different than what it is supposed to be used for. The context was realm magic; that is what the wizard's "devices" refer to. Stating that it has one use and one use only is mundane. Why is that? Not knowing what all the possibilities are is mystical. So you're saying you want to make sources less mystical by charting every possible use of them? Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt, with official facts that this can't happen? So far your argument has only been your own perceptions, but I can understand that because nowhere in the rules does it say mebhaighl can only be used it realm spells. It's quite simple, really. The rules only state one function for mebhaighl - realm magic. Then, that is the only function it has. By definition, it does nothing else than that. You can't list every function that everything does not have. The D&D magic system is very exacting in this way, and always has been.