Mebhaighl

[blitzmacher]

Which BR history are you referring to? Please cite source and page number.

Book of Regency page 99.

[Mark_Aurel]

That has nothing to do with what you stated - If you read your BR history the elves knew well the power of mebhaighl before Mount D-Day, but afterwards the power of the land was changed and the knowledge of magic lessened. Thats why magic items are rare, because the knowledge is all but gone. - the text you refer to says nothing about a loss of knowledge - and the explanation for the rarity of magic items is that those capable of creating them are rare, not that they lack in knowledge.

Much knowledge was probably lost at Deismaar, though - as a result of the death of many old elves and dragons, and the old gods themselves.

There is still nothing in any of the text you cited that would imply that mebhaighl could in any way be used to "pump up" a spell, however.

[blitzmacher]

Much knowledge was probably lost at Deismaar, though - as a result of the death of many old elves and dragons, and the old gods themselves.

You belittle my asumptions and place yours in its place.

There is still nothing in any of the text you cited that would imply that mebhaighl could in any way be used to "pump up" a spell, however.

I didn't say that it did, I said it to answer this paragraph of yours,"It is likely that elves knew of the power of mebhaighl long before Deismaar, but were unable to harness it for any purpose as they were not powerful enough. With the coming of bloodlines, it is again likely that elves and men alike discovered a new bond with the land, that allowed them to harness the very power of the land itself for great effects. ", and where is the source for this?
Tsk. Don't try to play authority figure without having the sources ready in advance.

[Mark_Aurel]

Common sense - even elves can't work realm magic without bloodlines, suggesting that realm magic would be something inherited from Deismaar - a heritage of the gods. The elves didn't have bloodlines prior to Deismaar.

Themathically, though, it would probably be more appropriate if the elves were in fact capable of working realm magic prior to Deismaar - but there is no support for that in the rules.

and where is the source for this?

Asking for a source to confirm this is ludicrous - will you be going descartesian on me next?

1. Working realm magic requires bloodlines.
2. No one had a bloodline prior to Deismaar.
3. Thus, no one could work realm magic prior to Deismaar.

Does that make it clear enough?

This is actually a somewhat illogical area in BR; one would assume that the elves, of all people, would not readily accept the "divine right to rule" of blooded elves, quite the contrary - it would actually be reasonable to assume that some elves would consider blooded elves to be tainted, rather than blessed.

You belittle my asumptions and place yours in its place.

No. You made a statement as if it were _fact_. I stated an assumption, a theory. Furthermore, you specifically used the form "If you read your BR history," which implies that what you are posting is directly from the books - some of what you posted, you have proven to be correct, and some you have not proven. Further, I did state that your account sounded acceptable - you crafted your post in a poor manner, however. Referring to an unnamed source as some form of authority.

Next, as for the account of dragons and elves that died at Deismaar, there were nine dragons or so that died at Deismaar (Dragon #218, article on Tarazin the Gray). Since the tally of dragons has thus decreased from roughly 30 to less than 10, it is quite reasonable to assume that much ancient lore possessed by dragons has been lost. As for the elves, no similar account has been given, but surely many old elves who possessed much old knowledge perished at Deismaar, or prior to that conflagration, as humans spread over Cerilia.

[blitzmacher]

Common sense - even elves can't work realm magic without bloodlines, suggesting that realm magic would be something inherited from Deismaar - a heritage of the gods. The elves didn't have bloodlines prior to Deismaar.
Themathically, though, it would probably be more appropriate if the elves were in fact capable of working realm magic prior to Deismaar - but there is no support for that in the rules.
here's pg. 99 BoR
Before the flight from shadow and the battle of mount deismaar,ELVES AND HUMANS FOUND WAYS TO HARNESS MEGHAIGHL AND PRIESTLY MAGIC BY BINDING IT INTO SWARDS, STAVES, AND OTHER ITEMS. IN MANY CASES, THIS MAGICAL BINDING PROVED THE ONLY WAY MAGIC OF THE OLD TIME COULD BE FOCUSED AND CONTROLLED.
Spellcasters produced many powerful items. The battle of mount deismaar and the destruction of the old gods drained most of these artifacts, even as the POWER UNLEASHED THERE CHANGED MAGIC ITSELF. IN THE CATACLYSM'S WAKE, HUMANS WITH BLOODLINES DERIVED FROM THE OLD GODS' POWER BECOME CAPABLE OF FOCUSING AND CONTROLLING THE LAND'S MEBHAIGHL, JUST AS THE ELVES COULD.

I think that this would mean there was no realm magic prior to mount deismaar, only that they were able to use mebhaighl.
What have I not proven?

[Mark_Aurel]

That your caps lock key doesn't work?

If you read your BR history the elves knew well the power of mebhaighl before Mount D-Day, but afterwards the power of the land was changed and the knowledge of magic lessened. Thats why magic items are rare, because the knowledge is all but gone.

It's the section I have outlined above, in your previous statement, that you have yet to prove - and, in fact, if I recall, the text that followed in the BoR specifically proved you wrong - it isn't the knowledge of magic that's the restraining factor in creating magic items, but rather the number of possible creators.

What you have found would seem to be a case of giving a specific term a broader application - in the BR Rulebook, mebhaighl is specifically described as the power of the land, and that the only ones capable of harnessing the power of the land are regent wizards. The BR Rulebook, pages 12 and 81, are pretty clear in this regard. Some later works, though, use mebhaighl in a broader sense, as a Cerilian moniker for true magic, which seems wrong, given how the Rulebook treats mebhaighl. Case in point: Ordinary spells are not affected, either for good or ill, by a wizard's sources, thus, they are not connected to them in any way. The term mebhaighl has simply acquired a different meaning in the BoR - and no one has ever denied that the elves could wield true magic. Equating that with the concept of mebhaighl in the Rulebook is a far stretch, however. The wielding of a certain order of magic (lesser or true) is clearly tied to the nature of a creature (elf, dragon, blooded vs commoners), rather than the power of the land.

[blitzmacher]

The term mebhaighl has simply acquired a different meaning in the BoR. I don't think so, all it did was give a little history of how magic was before as opposed to after deismaar. Elves before deismaar could use mebhaighl, and after deismaar only blooded could. That's why it says blooded humans can wield mebhaighl like the elves could(past tense I believe).
Case in point: Ordinary spells are not affected, either for good or ill, by a wizard's sources, thus, they are not connected to them in any way.
Where does it say this?
Lawgiver:If you try to pool or channel meibhaighl into a spell the result is a Realm Spell.
It doesn't say that, all it states is that Wizards can achieve spectacular results by tapping into this power, but only wizards who control magical source holdings can do so. then later it shows only one possibility for it, the Realm Spell.

Now if the effect desired is somewhat less then what a realm spell would be, lets say true strike, and the blooded wizard with a source in that AO decided to channel mebhaighl into the spell and cast it on a unit of archers could it be possible that the unit would get a +1, or +2 on its next missile attack.

[Lawgiver]

blitzmacher:
Could you please give me your justification for the fact that a single realm spell takes an ENTIRE Domain action (An ENTIRE MONTH)?

If a realm spell that needs to channel meibhaighl takes a month, why would it suddenly be so easy for a mage to tap a portion of the meibhaighl source to enhance a standard spell?

[blitzmacher]

BR Rulebook pg 82
Realm spells are a form of ritual magic. By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell. The preparations are lengthy and involved; in fact, a domain action (one full month) is required for a wizard to employ a realm spell. A wizard regent begins play with 1d3 random realm spells.

If a realm spell that needs to channel meibhaighl takes a month, why would it suddenly be so easy for a mage to tap a portion of the meibhaighl source to enhance a standard spell?

I didn't say it would be so easy. First a realm spell is great magic that takes a lot of power and time to cast. Most normal spells take little time to cast, and require none of the lands magic. Now if you channel a small portion of the mebhaighl into a normal spell the spell could be enhanced at the effects of the spell improved, but if too much is put into it, it could blow the wizard apart. Sorta like putting 2gallons of water in a 1gallon jug or 2liters into 1liter, which ever you like. The fact that you don't require the amount of Mebhaighl as is needed for a Realm spell would mean a shorter casting time, but a longer casting time than a normal spell cast normally. It would also be quite tiring to cast. Normally a True Strike spell takes one action round to cast. To enhance this same spell with Mebhaighl it might take a few minutes to cast. Thats a long time going through a lot of procedures to cast a spell, especially if it is cast in combat.
The biggest problem with this is that all normal spells could be affected like this, which means what affect would occur with each spell, which means a lot of work.

[Mark_Aurel]

If you want to improve a spell, use a metamagic feat.

Has it occurred to you that it might not be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? To use a metaphor - if mebahighl is like the currents of the sea, all the wizard can really do is change the currents somewhat to fit his purpose, not exactly control the currents to create a "mini-current." It's simply not feasible to control mebhaighl on such a small scope.

Further, why would mebhaighl be so incredibly potent on a local scale? It states that the power of a cyclone, or the power of an ancient forest contains a lot of power - not every little nook and cranny. The power of a single tree is far less than what even a 1st-level wizard wields. And that is pretty much all the mebhaighl that is likely to be found on a battlefield in any case; battles don't take place where mebhaighl is strong, in general.

Wizards need _time_ - a _lot_ of it, to steer and concentrate mebhaighl enough to create any effects - and, due to the nature of mebhaighl, those effects aren't localized, but rather tied to the flow of the mebhaighl itself.

Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.