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Thread: Goblin/Giant Empire
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11-14-2007, 04:04 PM #21
Well he could try for a while, but sooner or later the inherent danger of being a rich weakling surrounding yourself with bloodthirsty warriors looking for gold and slaughter might discourage imitation
I can see your point, but the technologically backward areas close to a sufficiently wealthy group for there to be a big wealth gap (i.e. the Vos:Brecht, Vos:Khinasi and the goblinoids) are presumably technologically backward because they really don't get on well with their neighbours - otherwise they'd have bought the technology. Those poor relations would deter all but the desperate from the mercenary hires suggested, or from mass land buying or other problems caused by rich nation : poor nation divides.
Of course if you want to argue that there shouldn't be such radical technological divides then I'd be hard pressed to counter beyond mumbling about angry gods, rabid cultures and suchlike - but if they exist something must be stopping the interaction.
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11-14-2007, 04:16 PM #22
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Sorry, maybe it is just me, but I do not see the goblins as weak as I think the rest of you do. The second largest city that we know of in Birthright is a goblin city. The requirements of mantaining a city that large would, at least in my mind, be a strong economy and strong personal leaders. (Does not have to be the "king" per se)
So a goblin might not make a crystal vase as well as an elf, or a stone building as well as a dwarf. However there has to be something that makes their culture strong enough to have some rather large, and a few rather strong realms.
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11-15-2007, 09:10 AM #23
Goblin's aren't weak. They are very effective in battle. They aren't terribly productive as economic actors, though.
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11-15-2007, 11:53 AM #24
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ok... found the answer !
Mercs cost double muster/maintenance !
And even if the "merc" tag is on the goblin unit, it's the base muster cost. So a common goblin unit in goblin domain would cost 1 GB. A goblin mercenary unit would cost 2 GB.
***Now the new question !***
An infantry unit is Warriors or Fighters class ?
Because, if I referred to DMG, a mercenary unit cost 6gp/month and is a War1. So if my standard Anuirean unit cost 2 GB, that makes me 4 GB as mercs. Also, this means they would earn only 3 gp/month when on garrison, 6 gp/month active and 12 gp/month to muster. Assuming a unit is 200 soldiers and a GB is around 2,000 gp.
Also, is they're a rule for creating units ? Ogre Legion is 8 GB with +12 to-hit, so How can I create an Hill Giant unit ?
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11-15-2007, 01:12 PM #25
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Don't do it that way. You will totally be messed up.
The quote I provided from Chap 8 about the value of a GB talks about how things are different at the domain level. That applies to troop costs too.
Behind the curtain: How many individuals are in an army unit?
An army unit consists of enough individuals to make a reasonable fighting force in mass combat. The actions of particularly strong individuals or small groups are not represented as a unit; instead they are represented as an adjustment to the unit with which they travel, using a Hero's card (refer to the section on tactical warfare). If it is necessary, for role-playing reasons, to determine the number of individuals in a unit then the following guidelines can be useful.
A military unit has an encounter level (EL) of roughly 14 + half of the unit's muster cost. For example, a unit of standard infantry (muster cost 2 GB) is approximately EL 15. If we assume that the soldiers in the unit are 1st-level warriors (CR 1), then we can determine that it requires 128 soldiers CR 1 soldiers to create a standard EL 15 unit. Thus, there are approximately 128 soldiers in a standard unit.
Elite units often consist largely of veteran troops and a core contingent of specialized warriors. These forces work together in order attack to maximize the damage to the enemy. Only a small fraction of the individuals in a unit of Anuirean Knights, for example, are actually knights. The majority of the unit consists of light cavalry, retainers, and other support troops that accompany the knight. Likewise, an Ogre unit will generally contain a sizable contingent of goblin support troops. As a rule of thumb, the specialized troops should make no more than 50% (base EL - 2) of the overall unit strength. A unit of Varsk riders (EL 18) might consist of both mounted varsk riders (CR 5) and mounted support personal (CR 2). This unit might contain approximately 50 mounted varsk riders (EL 16) and 100 support personal (EL 16) for a total encounter level of 18.
Cry Havoc will probably have the level of detail you want.Duane Eggert
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11-15-2007, 01:29 PM #26
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There are no kingdom ruling in Cry Havoc.
I'm trying to bridge BR-domain rules, Cry Havoc, DMG rules and Stonghold Builders Guidebook all together ! I don't need for a complex system like the Empire or Fields of war books. BR is the simplest-easiest system ever created for ruling a kingdom in 2e or 3e (since Wotc focus on fu** dungeoning even for 20th-level characters... they don't seem to realize that they're 13th-level kings must got money and riches from the people and that maybe PC would like to hold this kind of power!)
From my point of vue, I try to bridge all those rules together and its not easy. But by having a GB value of 4,000 gp, it seems to bind together better. Its look like BR-setting was less rich than the DMG3.5.
DMG and Stronghold builders states a simple guard (war1) has 6 gp/month... does this really equals the value of a unit of Mercs ? or Regular unit ? (6*3=18 gp/season * 200 soldiers = 3 600 gp). But than, is the 6gp/month value is set as garrison or active or muster cost ?
The bridge is very short to cross and adapt. I only seek your wisdom on the subject
After all... in BR what is a Fortification (5) ? a Great Stone Castle or a Motte-and-Bailey ?
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11-15-2007, 01:39 PM #27
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Quote:
Behind the curtain: How many individuals are in an army unit?
An army unit consists of enough individuals to make a reasonable fighting force in mass combat. The actions of particularly strong individuals or small groups are not represented as a unit; instead they are represented as an adjustment to the unit with which they travel, using a Hero's card (refer to the section on tactical warfare). If it is necessary, for role-playing reasons, to determine the number of individuals in a unit then the following guidelines can be useful.
A military unit has an encounter level (EL) of roughly 14 + half of the unit's muster cost. For example, a unit of standard infantry (muster cost 2 GB) is approximately EL 15. If we assume that the soldiers in the unit are 1st-level warriors (CR 1), then we can determine that it requires 128 soldiers CR 1 soldiers to create a standard EL 15 unit. Thus, there are approximately 128 soldiers in a standard unit.
Elite units often consist largely of veteran troops and a core contingent of specialized warriors. These forces work together in order attack to maximize the damage to the enemy. Only a small fraction of the individuals in a unit of Anuirean Knights, for example, are actually knights. The majority of the unit consists of light cavalry, retainers, and other support troops that accompany the knight. Likewise, an Ogre unit will generally contain a sizable contingent of goblin support troops. As a rule of thumb, the specialized troops should make no more than 50% (base EL - 2) of the overall unit strength. A unit of Varsk riders (EL 18) might consist of both mounted varsk riders (CR 5) and mounted support personal (CR 2). This unit might contain approximately 50 mounted varsk riders (EL 16) and 100 support personal (EL 16) for a total encounter level of 18. /QUOTE
This rule is not right... simply because a unit of 1st-level warriors (first warriors are CR1/2 and not 1) is not an EL 15 when facing an Hero 15th-level, he would gain no XP even if you have an army of 128 1st-level warriors. Only 8 can attack in close-combat and another 16 could attack with reach weapons at -4 to-hit ! Even with arrows you would shoot in melee -4 and with cover -4 for -8 total. So it wouldn't be a challenge of EL 15 !
So to state that a unit is 200 individuals (as per BRCS p.90) is much easier !Last edited by Panics; 11-15-2007 at 02:19 PM.
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11-15-2007, 03:39 PM #28
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I have come with a formulae:
((CR*BaseGB)+BaseGB)*(Number of soldiers/200)
Ogres (CR3)
equivalency of Medium/Irregulars/Standard for Muster base value of 2GB
so...
(3x2)+2)*200/200=8 GB per unit
Which correspond with the 8 GB value of p.117 @ Ogre Legion stats.
Hill Giants would be:
Hill Giants (CR7)
Equivalency of Medium/Irregulars/Standard for muster base value of 2GB
((7x2)+2)*200/200=16 GB per unit
for a unit of 25 Hill Giants...
((7x2)+2)*25/200=4 GB per unit
what do you think ?
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11-15-2007, 08:04 PM #29
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Correct, but you were talking about units based on individual soldier pricing - that was why I mentined it. I was refering to the fact that the monetary value in the core rule books and the GB costs in the BRCs do not correspond readily. In general a unit in BR costs more than the equivalent in number of warriors from the DMG. This could be seen as the cost of "training" a group to work together instead of a group of uncoordinated wrriors. By costing more I'm including the maintenance costs as well as the muster costs. The DMg lacks on the maintenance side pretty drastically.
Fields of Blood has a domain system also - and mass combat system.
It doesn't use the skill based system that the BRCS uses.
After all... in BR what is a Fortification (5) ? a Great Stone Castle or a Motte-and-Bailey ?
It could be any or all of those. It really depends on where you are.
A fortification in certain locations could be less of a "structure" than guards and terrain.
The BRCS was designed (based on the 2nd ed material) to be rather abstract so that a DM could make it as detailed as he wanted to.
But, I would caution someone to be real careful about how much detail they put in.
Once that door is opened it becomes very hard to close. And few things are as frustrating as a half done system (that is only some of it being detailed).
One of the biggest complaints about BR's domain system (in 2nd ed) was the book keeping. It is rather easy to get lost in the details and end up accounting for almost everything instead of only the "important" things.Duane Eggert
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11-15-2007, 09:17 PM #30
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Just remember that the GB that a unit uses is not just the wages of it's soilders. It is also up keep for the arms and armour as well as food and lodging. So the price an npc (or pc if you wish) makes a month can be less that what is stated in these books. Just a thought, that way you could have an army of 100 cost 1,800gp a month for wages as you said with the rest going to upkeep.
(the reason a unit could be said to cost more could also include "hazzard" pay)
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