Goblin/Giant Empire

[irdeggman]

I would say the same about the Vos, lower input-output. Game works the same unless you try and buy a lot of Brecht or Khinasi stuff with GB. (mercenaries mostly).

Really the game only works the same unless you start to cross-culture at all.

This can cause a bookkeeping nightmare by having to keep track of the "mark up" of different cultural goods.

It can be done, is probably more accurate, but is a lot more work.

Elven and dwarven goods should by their very nature be at a premium to other cultures.

If using cross culture economic comparisons - I would use Brecht as the standard, since they pretty much trade with "everyone" and it would make sense that theirs would be the comparison to use. {Even though the other cultures would think theirs is the standard, oh vanity.}

[irdeggman]

I think this sums up the overview of what a GB is.

From Chap 8 of the BRCS.

The value of a gold bar
In a non-BIRTHRIGHT setting, you may select any coinage equivalent to a gold bar, as appropriate. The default value of 2,000gp in coinage should be acceptable for most campaigns. It should be noted, however, that a Gold Bar is not just a measure of monetary assets; it is a combination of many factors that is expressed in a term for use on domain-level spending/value. Typically a GB is a combination of coinage (sp, gp, etc.), valuable assets (gems, artwork, etc.), or owed services and goods (weapons, armor, food stuff, cloth, etc.). The assets represented by a GB may vary based on both culture and time; for example, in the winter months a collected GB probably represents worked goods, not foodstuffs (which might be represented at harvest-time). The Gold Bar is a game abstraction and can be anything the DMs deems reasonable.

Does an Anuirean GB have the same value as an Rjurik one? For the purposes of abstraction, the question is not relevant. A GB collected and spent in Anuire has the same relative purchasing power as a GB collected and spent in Rjurik. Only when Gold Bars cross culture boundaries does the exact value of the GB becomes truly relevant. As BIRTHRIGHT is an action-oriented game setting (rather than a cultural simulation), it is recommended that the relative economic status of various cultures be disregarded. In effect, a Gold Bar has exactly the same purchasing power everywhere. DMs who wish to institute rules for inflation, devaluation of coinage, and other economic factors are encouraged to do so, but such detail is beyond the default scope of the setting.

It should also be noted that some BIRTHRIGHT domain purchases in gold bars do [not] always reconcile well with the gold piece value guidelines presented in the Dungeon Master's Guide or other official d20 source books. The gold bar values for castles, ships, military units, and other domain assets are based on the established (and well play-tested) domain-level values introduced in the original BIRTHRIGHT setting. Discrepancies could be explained by noting the prices in the official source books may include the value of the land on which the castle/keep is built, plus the cost of creating a significant agricultural area with which to support the castle's inhabitants; such factors are already accounted for in the domain-level rules and thus the perceived prices may differ. It should be taken as read that the price for some assets have a different value in the BIRTHRIGHT setting. Use the values for assets in other campaign settings with care; combining two possibly different scales of asset valuation is potentially unbalancing.

[kgauck]

Not at all. The game effect of all realm activities is exactly the same. A level 3 fort is a level 3 fort. The difference is in things like how many towers are involved, is the wall megalith or brick and mortar, are the walls crenalated, and so on.

Consider one level 3 fort built by giants. Its a megalithic structure, constructed out of large whole rocks. Lifted and carried into place by giants and ogres, gaps are filled with rubbled and mortar. The shape of the fortification is circular, as are nearly all dark ages forts. It has no towers, but a hill is constructed inside the fort and a small stone structure is built on it for archers and as a final refuge.

Consider another level 3 fort constructed by the most advanced Cerilians, either Anuireans, Brecht, or Khinasi. The fort is constrcuted of cut blocks, each fitted to each other by master stone masons. The shape of the fortification follows the natural terrain, and includes a gate house and five towers. A keep is constructed inside the castle for defense and as a refuge. This fortification is smaller than the circle of large rocks, but each would be just as difficult to besiege or overcome. The giants constructed their fort more easily. It took fewer days of labor, lower quality food to keep the workforce going, and no specialists. The human fort took longer to build, the workforce required better quality food and better quality tools, and their were many specialists involved.

By the same token, the human economy (based on the same specialists and and tools) produces more. So the fort from each culture took about the same proportion of productive capacity.

The premise of the gold bar is that everything behind the final outcome doesn't matter (except as flavor) so that a gold bar buys a gold bar worth of stuff, even though in one province stone is expensive, and in another province food is expensive, while in another province, labor is expensive. Plus, where you end up on the quality vs quantity slider doesn't matter, because a gold bar buys a gold bar worth of combat effectiveness, whether its a lot of goblins with dark-ages crafted technology, or a few elite Anuirean horsemen with the best armor and weapons, a gold bar buys a gold bar's worth of stuff.

But I do think its worth pointing out that what's going on behind each gold bar is not the same.

[kgauck]

Elven and dwarven goods should by their very nature be at a premium to other cultures.

Cetainly, but you need fewer of them to get the job done, and the elves and dwarves have taken the time to establish stockpiles of high quality arms, so in the end, a gold bar buys a a gold bar worth of combat effectiveness.

But you can be sure that when DM'ing for dwarves I mention their superior arms, well crafted, lovingly crafted by master artisans, compared to the hastily crafted arms assembled by amatures that the humans carry.

But even so, a gold bar buys the same combat value no matter who spends it. But I will desccribe the armies differently. Not everyone is buying the same quality, quantity, or even needs the same resources to go from a to b.

[Retillin]

I would say the same about the Vos, lower input-output. Game works the same unless you try and buy a lot of Brecht or Khinasi stuff with GB. (mercenaries mostly).

So the Anurien GB is a euro, the Bretch and Khinasi is an American dollar, and what the Vos, Goblin, Rjurik GB are some sort of Russian or Mexican money?

I dont buy that (pardon the pun). Just because a Rjurik pesent pays his master in wheat, or furs doesnt mean he pays less. Otherwise what would stop some realms from signing on mercenary units from a cheaper yet close by racial group. I mean why wouldn't a Brecht leader use Vos for his lower units? You start to get into a game that is more worried about trade value of it's Yen than about everything else.

I have always thought that 8GB of one nations or race is the same as others. It's just that Dwarves use gold to pay their rent and vos use their time as warriors for the tribe.

Sorry to derail the post.

Back on topic I would assume that all goblin units are half cost to muster (just like elves and dwarves). But I think the best template you could use for a giant realm is an Awnsheghlien realm. Something along the lines of the Manticore or such.

[Panics]

So... after re-reading muster cost, it would seem a Goblin Unit would cost 1 GB

Light armor (+0.5 GB)
Infantry or Pike (+0.5 GB)

Total 1 GB

I could muster 1,000 goblins like that (making 5 GB per season)

Even if they're not strong... that's impressive !

[cccpxepoj]

what about some better goblin units, they are still ruled by giants so can't they force them into some special training and create some elite goblin unit( unit of bugbear berserkers, hobgoblin cavalry etc. )?

[kgauck]

Just because a Rjurik pesent pays his master in wheat, or furs doesnt mean he pays less.

Well, the world has a largely agricultural economy, and the Rjurik has a much shorter growing season. It would seem that he must pay less. This is generally accounted for in the color text by saying that the Rjurik are hardy and can make due with less. There is just no way that acre for acre you're getting the same productivity from the northern lands as you are from the southern. Return on labor for dark ages, high medieval, and renaissance technology is not the same. In terms of agriculture, where 90% of people work, its a ratio of 2:4:6 in each of those ages respectively. If 90% of the people (not 90% of the total GDP) are producing in these ratios, its hard to imagine how their per capita tax rate is the same.

When we say that the Rjurik have a high medieval technology level, and then we account for their climate. Its hard to imagine that the cost of anything in Halskapa is going to be compatible with the cost of things in Diemed. This is of course why people trade, to take advantage in the price differences of objects here and there (as well as exclusive resources). But in border areas, there is going to be a much closer level of climate and technology level. Svinikers won't hire Avanese pikemen when then want Anuirean pikemen, they'll be recruiting from Talinie or Dhoesone, whose technology would be regarded as backwater to the South Coast and the Heartlands, and their climate is similar to to the southern most Rjurik lands.

In terms of normal play, these are theoretical issues. Its like time zones. In the modern world time zones are set (for the railroads 150 years ago) but in the medieval world, you took time based on the local position of the sun. Likewise in Cerilia as you travel about you won't (mostly) notice dramatic changes in the value of money or labor. Things will change gradually, so that a GB will always buy the same value to a domain. The one place where you might notice the change dramatically is the Brecht-Vos contact area, where its much cheaper for Brecht to hire Vos mercs than the other way round.

[Panics]

A question would be:

If it cost 1 GB for a common goblin infantry that is classified has "mercs"... what would be the value of the "mercs" ? 0.5 GB ?

To a Goblin Domain, a Common Anuirean units of Knights mercenaries would cost how much ? (6GB for Anuire)

[geeman]

At 03:41 AM 11/14/2007, Retillin wrote:

>I have always thought that 8GB of one nations or race is the same as
>others. It`s just that Dwarves use gold to pay their rent and vos
>use their time as warriors for the tribe.

It`s definitely simpler from a gaming POV to assume that a GB is a GB
no matter where it is generated, spent or exchanged. Some folks
prefer a more detailed economic system, and such things are
interesting to read about, but I`d be pretty unlikely to use such a
thing in a domain system. Relative economic disparities are better
portrayed IMO by terrain and its effects on population levels, the
actual population levels, guild holding levels and the capacity of
trade routes (which should also be a leveled component, but I
digress....) That way the abstraction of the GB can remain an abstraction.

>Back on topic I would assume that all goblin units are half cost to
>muster (just like elves and dwarves). But I think the best template
>you could use for a giant realm is an Awnsheghlien realm. Something
>along the lines of the Manticore or such.

Giants are, relatively speaking, more rare than other types of
creatures in a population. Amongst the monstrous races they might be
considered to occupy the role that knights occupy in human lands. As
such, a "giant kingdom" that ruled a largely goblin or other land
needn`t be any more powerful militarily or as a population than any
other BR domain. The muster cost and stats of various "giant
kingdom" units could and probably should vary just as widely as those
of human realms depending on the number of elite (read: giant) troops
are in the unit. Where a human company of soldiers is comprised
largely of 1st and 2nd level soldiers, with sergeants and a few
officers ranging from 3rd to 6th or 7th level a company of soldiers
from the giant kingdom would be comprised mostly of goblins with
proportionately more powerful monsters in the place of levelled humans.

Gary