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  1. #31
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    Well I know that the rules must be bend

    I don't search the exact details of the salaries of troops but do understand that my PC may want to buy different kind of troops and while using Cry Havoc (which use a 10 soldier basis).

    I want to clarify the rules only to have guidelines for creating armies and managin fortification costs without having to ask the DM !

    Our BR-like game is more of an "in between" games where our 13th-level characters have some land and play kings and queens of their countries. In games, we mainly play low-levels in dungeoneering !!

  2. #32
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    Tharazor is a goblin realm of organisation and some sophistication - Goblins it seems if well led can manufacture and produce effectively (as far as I can see) - I can't remember any special rulings for production/ trade/ guilds particularly - as it is treated much as any other province.

    Prehaps look there for some of your parallels - some human realms packed full of robbers and outcasts would have less sophistication.

    I also have the impression that BR treated its Goblins a bit differently from standard D&D gobbos - but mabey thats just from looking at Tharazor - Markazor. (SP)?

  3. #33
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panics View Post
    Well I know that the rules must be bend

    I don't search the exact details of the salaries of troops but do understand that my PC may want to buy different kind of troops and while using Cry Havoc (which use a 10 soldier basis).
    So you are already in house-rule territory, since you have combined rule-sets. Which is what my earlier comment was alluding to. Combining rule sets makes things difficult, especially if there are other house-rules in effect (typical of any game not just a BR one).

    I want to clarify the rules only to have guidelines for creating armies and managin fortification costs without having to ask the DM !
    But you are still getting the DM's approval for the result correct?

    That is when you create a new unit, the DM has final say on what its stats (and costs) are - just like spell research.

    So in reality it is probably best to talk it over with the DM first before spending a lot of time on it only to have him/her say it works different than you wanted.

    I tend to worry about putting in too much detail in the rules because players (and I know players because I is one) will tend to use the rules to their advantage and remove the DM's flexability in how he/she runs the game. When it comes down to the DM stating "That is the DM's call" and it doesn't match what is written down there can be a lot of resentment, especially in non table-top, face-to-face games - which is real common for BR due to the domain level play aspects.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #34
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman View Post
    I also have the impression that BR treated its Goblins a bit differently from standard D&D gobbos - but mabey thats just from looking at Tharazor - Markazor. (SP)?
    Nope - BR specifically treated goblins differently than the MM version in 2nd ed and this carried over to the BRCS. BR goblins tend to be more organized and socially structured than the MM version.

    They were at war with the elves and enslaved by them (all before Deismaar) - so there is a precedent for the present-day BR goblins have more knowledge on how to groom domains and manage resources than the MM version.
    Duane Eggert

  5. #35
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    On page 19, the rule book still identifies goblins as aproximating Dark Ages technology. That's a pretty clear statement about the sophistication and production effeciency of the goblins.

    I generally would apply the "Charlemagne test". If its way too modern for Charlemagne, its too modern for the goblins.
    Last edited by kgauck; 11-16-2007 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Charlemagne Test

  6. #36
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    On page 19, the rule book still identifies goblins as aproximating Dark Ages technology. That's a pretty clear statement about the sophistication and production effeciency of the goblins.
    The same as the Vos.

    I don't know about "sophistication" and "production efficiency" being related to "technology". What that meant in 2nd ed was "technology, that is how "complex" the weapons and equipment was. In general this correlated to fewer "steel" weapons and other "high tech" weaponry (the Vos specifically do not have steel weapons - , well they were much "rarer" at the least). It did not mean that they couldn't manage resources as well, or not well enough to run a domain - that is the big difference between BR goblins and the MM variation, IMO.

    I generally would apply the "Charlemagne test". If its way too modern for Charlemagne, its too modern for the goblins.
    I like this one.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #37
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    Well I am the DM... and I want my Players to have some autonomy on their creativity without having a phone call every 5 min because they want to know if its OK for they're caste to have a guard tower they're and they're because they live in a Fortification (2).

    I know that the GB factor is very general and its perfect. That's why I always loved the BR-domain rules ! Simple, straight forward, fast !

    For the players to know that a Fortification (5) is like having Military structures equivalent to around 80.000 gp is a way for them to create their holdings. Designing they're castle... with finale approval of DM. To know that for 0.6 GB, they can Hire 10 Ogres mercs, that's also interesting... It's fleshing out they're characters.

    As for me, the DM, I can create ennemies that are "believable". What I have found in other settings and Wotc books/adventures is a lack of believability. One country has an army of 3000 man and the other has only 100. You have Goblins hordes of 100,000 that comes from nowhere but it's fun to clash with it ! let's write an adventure !

  8. #38
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irdeggman View Post
    What that meant in 2nd ed was "technology, that is how "complex" the weapons and equipment was.
    There are really only two things that determine production efficiency: skill and tools. But we know there must be a ceiling on skills, because better skills produce better tools. Working with a set of dark age tools, and the skill set that produces them must yield no more than a dark ages level of productivity. So a given level of technology is almost strictly determinative of production and economic sophistication.

    It did not mean that they couldn't manage resources as well, or not well enough to run a domain - that is the big difference between BR goblins and the MM variation, IMO.
    "Well" is a relative term. Compared to a renaissance level of statecraft, Edward III is backward and William the Conqueror is primitive. There are serious questions about how post-feudal the modern powers are (Anuire, Brecht, Khinasi), but Charlemagne is pre-feudal, and pre-manorial. Charlemagne may have run things well compared to the visigoths, the ostrogoths, or the Merovingians, but he was not so well off as the Moors, never mind the later medieval states, like those of William or Edward, let alone the Tudors.

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