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  1. #1
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    Guild and Temple Holdings

    Hi there,

    Long time no write ! But I have more questions now about Guild and Temples holdings.

    More specifically there "expenses". What are they ?

    I know they earned 2/3 GB per level but what do they have to pay for ? How can they invest... it seems to me a LOT of money after a year.

    Ok, if you are provincial ruler, you can invest in the province in army and fortification but if you're not ?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you're meaning here. If you need justification for their income, guilds are businesses and merchant companies, whereas temples generate money from tithes and donations.

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    In the PC game you can't a non territorial ruler,but I think that in the paper game a guilder without province is able to invest in mercenaries and agitation.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Any organization, whether a guild or temple spends most of its income on its normal day to day operations. The amount of surplus available for player action is a small percentage of the income and expence of an organization. Just meeting the payroll, so to speak, is going to drain away a tremendous amount of money. Keeping up structures is costly as well. I would guess that these two expences are the two top costs of an organization.

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    humm ok... I think I have been misunderstood...

    My Province (2) (Regent X) has:

    Law (2) (Regent X)
    Guild (2) (Regent Y)
    Temple (2) (Regent Z)

    Law Regent (X) would earn an income of 0.7 GB (1/3x2) + 2 GB for the province for a total of 2.7 GB that he can spend on some troops and a castle.

    Guild Regent (Y) would earn income of 1.3 GB (2/3x2). That he could spend on...? must spend on...?

    Temple Regent (Z) would earn income of 1.3 GB (2/3x2). That he could spend on...? must spend on...?

    Thanks !

  6. #6
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Well, it's like any income - you can spend it on whether you like, must or are in a position to do. The generated income is profit, over and above all salaries, overheads and taxes, unless the law-lord of the province decides to exact extra taxes from you.

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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    I think most money and regency (the surplus) is spent on actions. Espionage, Diplomacy, Agitate, Contest, and other fun with holdings.

    Plus, there is no good reason that guilds and temples don't also have armed men and strongholds. These might well be ill suited for standard warfare, but well suited for other kinds of conflicts.

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    Site Moderator Sorontar's Avatar
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    If you want your holding level to be maintained, you have to maintain your notoriety, ie. your regency. You as a regent have to be seen at all the right places, mix with the right people, be spending money on the right things, maintain a court etc. These are just part of the general costs to be one of the bigwigs of town.

    Sorontar
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    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Instead of looking to the rules and saying what can these holdings do, I would look at the world the DM (whether you or another) has created and ask, what would these holdings be doing, and then consider how the rules would support that.

    Let's take the issue of who can raise troops. Generally anyone with money can raise troops. Even in a modern state where the state can effectively maintain a monopoly on violence, its possible to raise troops with ready cash. With the approval of the state you are a security company. Without it, you're a gang or maybe a cult. If the state doesn't have a monopoly on violence (and I rather think its very hard to establish one without several modern conditions), then nearly anyone with ready cash can effectively raise troops and the state can only compel its will by counter-force.

    Under such conditions its not necessary to allow any holding the full access to any troop type. Most obvious are knights. As members of the feudal order, many would have sworn fealty to the land lord, they might be exclusive to landed regents. Or you may decide that churches with a warlike nature, especially one suited to knights can raise a single unit of knights or a unit per so many levels of holdings. On the other end of the spectrum, anyone should be able to raise a unit of irregulars.

    In addition to what kind of troops you can raise, there is the issue of how many troops can you raise. At one extreme, you can effectively only recruit from among your own organization. At the other you can freely recruit among the whole populace.

    Its hard to imagine guilds without gangs to enforce their will. These gangs may normally assemble as small bodies of one or two dozen, but certainly if I have gangs throughout the province I could bring them all together. Likewise if I put out the call to my guild members, some of them would show up with some kind of arms, prepared to fight. One of the causes of the Hundred Years War is the English support for the Flemish cities who defied the Count of Flanders and through him the King of France. The cities repeatedly through out the Count of Flanders in the 1330's, as the guilds were powerful and the count was weak. (The old house of Flanders died out, the King confiscated the county and handed it to another, and the new count never effectively had control.) The English didn't send arms or men, but wanted to trade with the cities as they purchased English wool, so conducted trade with these "outlaws" despite being, as Duke of Aquitaine, a vassal of the French king.

    My general reading of that is that as the towns get bigger, the guilders get to eclipse the power of the landlords. Where that point is is really up to the DM, but I would say its at the very top of the scale, 8, 9, and 10 or so. Maybe at 6 or 7 the guilder is equal or just slightly less potent than the landlord. Of course one way for the landlord to tip the balance back in his favor is to make sure that the guild holdings are held by two rivals, and to always support the weaker guilder, so that no one guilder can overawe him.

    Just as the towns have gangs that can be assembled unto a body of irregular troops, there is also the case of temples, who can always raise some body of troops. Its hard to imagine, for instance, that a temple to the god or war or battle couldn't raise troops. You always have your membership, and then you also have followers, so some body of troops is possible.

    The question, as always, comes down to what kinds and how many. This is ultimately a question that the DM has to figure out based on how they imagine the social order.

  10. #10
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    In terms of expenses don't forget influence over the king. As a guilder I may be barred from mustering large numbers of men, may not be able invade a neighbour, etc - but if the king relies on my gold to maintain his armies and castles then I can certainly make some strong suggestions.

    As noted there are also parties and great works - I'd allow any regent to convert GB to RP at, say, 1:4 by means of a great work of art, festival etc to show off their splendour. (1:4 not 1:5 cf troop maintenance to reflect exchange losses).

    Similarly there is no reason why I can't encourage the realm ruler to rule up a province or two by offering to sponsor the cost, why the guilder can't build a wonder, why they can't build a large fleet or expand their operations, etc.

    BR doesn't have a lot of rules for spending serious money in terms of clothes, jewels, retinue's etc but it does have courts that act in a similar manner - a guilder may well have a better court than the king - and embassies in other realms.

    A guilder in short often spends their gold to gain the influence that birth denied them...

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