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  1. #11
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Especially when the Papacy and some order or another conflicted. Example: The Franciscans took their clerical vow of poverty very seriously, and were offended by the luxury and wealth of the Papacy. At the beginning of the 14th century, the Franciscans began to argue the absolute poverty of Christ, that he literally owned nothing. Everything he had was given to him by a supporter. The Papacy, which was quite extravagant at the time, rejected this idea, and Benedict XIII eventually banned the order over this issue and their criticism of Papal wealth. Franciscans found easy and frequent refuge with powers who we not in lock step with Rome, such as in England, and in the Empire. William of Ockham was one of these Franciscans who fought with the Pope. The struggles of the Franciscans got intertwined with other anti-Papal struggles like the fight between Louis the Bavarian (who spent a great deal of his reign excommunicated, though supported not only by the Franciscans but by the German church as well) and the Anglo-French conflicts.

    That's an extreme example, where an order got banned, but you can easily imagine other conflicts that were less intense, or happened to overlap less with other critical fights.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Beruin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgauck View Post
    If we further imagine that the organization is not based on one total leader (no pope) because perhaps the Emperor had that official function and the "bishops" ran the church like the dukes ran the empire, and that without the person of the Emperor, both are divided and disunited.
    I like the idea of the emperor as head of the Anuirean church, this resembles the Roman Empire a bit, as the Roman Emperors held this office as well, signified by the title Pontifex Maximus.
    We should then perhaps add a mad emperor who believed himself a god to Anuirean history, in the time-honoured tradition of the mad Caesars...
    OTOH, this would probably eliminate a medieval-style conflict between "Pope" and Emperor from BR.
    Well, for my current campaign I already established the head of the OIT as a kind of "Pope", but I can imagine using this approach next time...


    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    And what about all the monastic orders in the Real World. They had to be recognised by the Pope but what controls were placed on them after that? Who was in charge of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Cistercian?
    Well, I assume we more or less agree that the Anuireans follow a single religion/pantheon with Haelyn as the main god, and that all the different temples are or at least were a part of this religion, even though they might be divided along different ideological interpretations. How did other orders came into being?

    I gave a few examples how I picture this for the temples of Haelyn, but I would be interested to know what you think about other churches, say of Sarimie or Aeric. When and how were these churches founded, what are their relations to the main faith of Haelyn, are they still integrated in a greater structure, even if only formally?

  3. #13
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    I like the idea of the emperor as head of the Anuirean church, this resembles the Roman Empire a bit, as the Roman Emperors held this office as well, signified by the title Pontifex Maximus.

    We should then perhaps add a mad emperor who believed himself a god to Anuirean history, in the time-honoured tradition of the mad Caesars...
    OTOH, this would probably eliminate a medieval-style conflict between "Pope" and Emperor from BR.

    Well, for my current campaign I already established the head of the OIT as a kind of "Pope", but I can imagine using this approach next time...

    This seems like a "logical" concept - especially since it fits in the the regent concept, the "head" of the OIT is the regent of that realm (unlanded as it is). To take a different approach would in essence be neutering the temple regent. The concept of "attitude" inside the domain could redily follow as a mechanical means of illustrating how much he is "loved" and "trusted" (or in other words the amount of people rebelling against his papalcy and calling for a "split").


    There is the State Religion concept highlighted in the Religion and State sidebar on pg 70 of BoP.

    This lays out the "power" that such an organization has.

    Other than the theorocracies there are several other places with State Regions: Roesone and Diemed come to mind.
    Duane Eggert

  4. #14
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorontar View Post
    What about all the monastic orders in the Real World. They had to be recognised by the Pope but what controls were placed on them after that? Who was in charge of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Cistercian?
    There is some founder, such as St Dominic, St Francis, St Bernard, or St Bozo (commonly refered by the French version of his name, Odo) who writes a rule, a set of rules, or revises rules and the Pope approves these rules. The founder and his followers practice the rule. If others wish to follow the rule, the founder may establish new monastic houses under his rule. The organization of monestaries is very feudal. The abbot of the original house (whether the founder, or his successor) was the head of the whole body which followed the rule of the order. Each house would have its own abbot, and each of these abbots would be subject to the abbot of the original house. In the case of the Cluniacs the order is known for the place of the head abbot, Cluny, not the founder, St Odo. Sometimes, when an order gets very large, a seperate abbot-primate is created who does not have the responsibility of running the original monestary. Once created an order is substantially independent. As long as an order doesn't innovate, its largely autonomous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beruin View Post
    Well, I assume we more or less agree that the Anuireans follow a single religion/pantheon with Haelyn as the main god, and that all the different temples are or at least were a part of this religion, even though they might be divided along different ideological interpretations. [...] I would be interested to know what you think about other churches, say of Sarimie or Aeric. When and how were these churches founded, what are their relations to the main faith of Haelyn, are they still integrated in a greater structure, even if only formally?
    My own view is that the temple that collects regency and gold is the politically dominant temple. All other temples are playing a game or reacting to the dominant temple(s). I think you'll always see priests of Cuiraécen, Nesirie, and Haelyn where ever you go in Anuire, and temples to them too. But in Elinie, the priests of Haelyn do not hold enough independent power to alter the affairs of the realm. The regent, Assan, listens to the priests of Avanalae. Perhaps further, the other priests of Haelyn squabble amongst themselves and without unity, excerise no power. Perhaps some favor the OIT, some the IHH, and some the WIT. Only in Mholien, Chalsedon, and in some quarters of Ansien has Anita Maricoere brought some unity and discipline to the priests of Haelyn, binding them to her will, and her direction. In these places Haelyn is strong, the natural patron of the people in Anuire.

    There are several explanations for why a temple fails to be dominant
    1) allegience to another
    2) disunity (allegience to no one or to too many)
    3) and the influence of other regents

    In case 1, you would say that the many war priests and law priests of Aerenwe prefer the leadership of Maire Cwllmie to that of Hubaere Armiendin, Wincae Raehech, or anyone else.

    in case 2, you would say that the local priests of Elinie bicker among themselves prefer the leadership of different high priest every few blocks, and actually spend more time thwarting one another than they do advancing any common agenda.

    in case 3, you would say that the common people are more disposed to Haelyn, but the landed ruler, guilder, and perhaps even the source regent prefer this other temple, and back them with resources, actions, and the attitude of their own holdings. This state of affairs is best suited to an already established temple. The Life and Protection of Avanalae, now so long established doesn't require any further explanation for its dominance other than its long dominance and the support of Assan ibn Daouta, and maybe Elamien Lamier. People who want to get things done support Medhlorie Haensen, because she can help them get things done. They may prefer the teachings of Anita Maricoere and the rites of Haelyn, but if these are not useful in the affairs you undertake, you must pay respect to Medhlorie in order to protect your activities. For instance, Assan may seek the approval of Medhlorie when he makes judicial appointments, to insure that the law is interpreted in the light of reason. If you think you will have dealings in the courts you want to walk in the circles which will put you in touch with the other people who will decide things that effect you, not wander alone as an outsider talking only to hermit wise men and expecting to be influential yourself.

    In general I think of one explanation for a realm, and then province by province mix things up by adding a little of the other as well. So in general I think the Elinie situation is because of the Khinasi dynasty and their influence and patronage, now supported by time, tradition, and the existing client networks of the existing priests of Avani. Here and there I might describe squabbling priests of Haelyn, or priests of Haelyn who see Avani as an ally and support Medhlorie Haensen for ideological reasons and practical politics, but for the most part I describe the support and Assan and the established clientage of Medhlorie. Likewise in Aerenwe, I describe the priests of Haelyn as supporting Maire Cwllmie, and only occasionally describe a priest of the IHH arguing with a partisan of Rhobher Nichaleir or a proponant of Fitzalan's teachings.

    That's how I see the interactions of the temples and the priests of various dominant and uninfluential sects.

  5. #15
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    For the White Witch's realm I figured something similar. The bulk of the people still follow Erik, but his druids have no organisation and act on a purely local level. As a result all the organisation is done by the Priestesses of Kreisha who have 'the mature over-view to know when a limb must be excised'. GB goes up because the druids pass surplus income to the priestesses where it can best be allocated around the community, RP because all the druids recognise that the priestesses run things.

    Similarly in Khinasi you may see a lot of priests of Haelyn in the army, but they know that just as Haelyn is Avani's general they are merely the militant defenders of her priests and lands and do not focus on the 'rulership' side of Haelyn's teachings elsewhere.

    About the only realm I see big issues against this sort of god-mixing is Vosgaard where I just can't see the followers of the 'good' gods in service to the followers of the 'evil' gods.

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