Magical impact on land usage

[irdeggman]

I don't need to make the community see how much the BR setting has merit. This is a community that has assembled by itself on the idea that the setting is already pretty good as it is.

So true.

This is reflected in many of discussions that occured when trying to put together the BRCS (I know it is a 3.x thing) that tried to encompass the "new" version game mechanics. There was a large voice (as in the community as a whole) reflecting what was in 2nd ed and what "the setting" was built around.

This does not mean that discussions on how to do things in a different manner do not have a place (or meaning) - only that such discussions need to reflect that it is a change/deviation from "the setting" as designed and not what the setting "was meant to be" or "should be". That is where my ire gets raised. I have many of my own viewpoints on what I do when I run BR - but I do not "pretend" that they are in accordance with what the setting material says or what it was "designed" to be. I alwyas try to separate "my version" from "the official version" when making this comparisons.

There are places in the 2nd ed Birthright material where "conflicts" appear or are deliberately "vague". These are left to DM interpretation, either by design or by default. But these type of interpretations do not extend to other settings' material and how they should interface with Birthright - those fall in the "my game looks like this but it is a deviation from the canon material" and not "my game looks like this because that is how the canon material should have been".

[Thelandrin]

Matan, I don't know if you're trying to get into an argument with every BR moderator/admin at once, but you're doing spectacularly if you are.

Now, let's keep it civil and discuss (in normal-sized text) any topics in a rational way.

[AndrewTall]

Matan, I don't know if you're trying to get into an argument with every BR moderator/admin at once, but you're doing spectacularly if you are.

Now, let's keep it civil and discuss (in normal-sized text) any topics in a rational way.

We became / were chosen as moderators imho because we like the setting so much - and even if we do change some things for our own settings (who me???) we were willing to strive to keep br.net and br.wiki as the accepted canon 'base' with changes and expansions as 'add on's' only, so that all the other people who want read about the setting have a common reference point - as a result we all tend to get peeved by this sort of thing at once, although MT has a gift I must admit

[AndrewTall]

The basics of it are this. From what I can see from at least 20 sites there are a cadre of DM's out there that for whatever reason, can't or won't allow their games evolve to higher levels. They will go to any lengths to keep it that way.

The type of game changes dramatically as you go through the levels in DnD, particularly in 3e: gritty realism - swashbuckling - wuxia - super hero. If you like a particular style of play, you will want to have characters in the right zone. I expect that few people (DM's in particular) are equally happy in all game styles.

One DM I had liked to start a new campaign season at L10-12 minimum - he just didn't like low levels - he couldn't use the 'fun' monsters or spells and we kept dying when he got bored and did. Other groups, as you note, prefer low or mid level play - and therefore will strive to keep the game within those levels - to keep the game in the style they and their players like. These DM's are not so much a road block then as a shield protecting the players from the 'poorer quality' levels - as a good DM should.

People play non-level RP systems or skill based systems for exactly the same reason. Basically if a DM & the players like a game where characters are at risk from commoners, are strictly limited in abilities, etc then the DM will strive to avoid wuxia/super hero style play - and vice versa.

I conjecture that the reason so many find the MMORPG phenomenon so alluring is that they don't run into this human road block element that seems to arise from the low level gaming in Paper in Pen gaming.[/U] The sheer number of the MMORPG gamers dwarfs the current Paper & Pen game settings.

MMORPG is a completely different type of game to PnP or PBM/PBEM RP gaming. Many MMORPG's approach pure Hack 'n' slash computer games with little actual RP possible or even desired by their gamers. Further a MMORPG allows those unable to interact face to face to join a community, requires no travel, no local friends, has a global market for each game, etc, etc.

Most MMORPG's go monty haul in power as it pleases the pre-teen to late student market in particular to have rapid constant 'pay-off' from game play. since game pay-off is most easily recognised in power increase terms rather than RP satisfaction MMORPG's have rapid level progression, item acquisition, etc.

[MatanThunder]

If you can't allow the connectivity of magic and the fact that the Shadow World is in fact just another Shadow Plane then fine.

If I am going to get some purist site mod who only want magic and idea presented as they see them, then you all deserve each other. Will no one else on the site speak up for freedom of expression in this issue....or are you all mute conformists????

It doesn't matter to me if the poster is a site mod. If I can present created material that contradicts them then I shall with great gusto.

Back to what I had wanted to post about, but as my last post I don't know how long it will last. Lord knows that only a few posters have the vision of magic that it takes to be in the game here.

So I will be posting as to how the mods treat gamers here. Enjoy!!

If your talking planes then "the seeming" most closely resembles some of the effects in the plane of Limbo. Denizens are able to bend parts of their environment to their will and reality is what the strongest "will" chooses to exist.

If you reflect on the posted material from the Manual of the Planes #2 & #4 can do everything the seeming can. Oh wait that was deleted by a mod.

Glamour magic is what it is intended to reflect.

Please define glamour magic??? It's a facet of illusion, but it isn't a spell or individual school.

It seems that what we are discussing follows the rules of the study of Literature or theology. What the author is trying to portray vs what the reader understands. Interpretation is possible but within certain limits before it becomes a completely inaccurate presentation.

We are hardly there though. In the one of the posts above a contributor acknowledges that it is an optional version of the setting that connects it to everything else in the TSR world settings. They call it optional, but in those days the inter connectivity was a given for many of use.

Within a setting the game creators offered options and called them such. This was not noted in any setting as (optional) and neither was connections with the planes. All the material related to how that option is implemented becomes part of the system (and what the DM wants to understand it as) if they use the options.

(i.e. I see the connections and have found a fine way to integrate the changes that the author failed to adequately represent in the opinions of a reader.)

Ahh Postmodernity/ deconstructionism and D&D.

I don’t agree with the postmoderninity, but the deconstructionism is limited to the Birthright magic setting and how the Shadow Plane/World is part of that formula.

Running a High magic Birthright campaign myself I do sympathise with may points that are being made but I don't view them as entirely in keeping with the BR canon.

I’m glad to hear that others can see that magic isn’t anathema to the setting. I know that many won’t agree, but the Lesser vs True or Magician vs True Mages fairly scream kit. Class is more in depth. Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief….these are classes. Magician & True Mages are just kits for mages.

Also canon is highly over rated when you relate to how you enjoy the game (nice hearing from a fellow magic acknowledger in any case).

Also things get shot out of cannon frequently, and some of it are bits of useless material too, because they fall short of their target.

The point still stands though, Matan, that you cannot make all sorts of predictions about what Birthright was "supposed" to be and then decry others for sticking to what is actually in the book.

Point A…..I have mentioned with all due respect any number of times what I am saying is purely one DM’s interpretation.

Point B….I don’t decry sticking to a rule set. What I am pointing out is that the entirety of the magic system the offered in the Book of Magecraft was flawed in its implementation.

It lacked the focus of true class magic and a unique spell system related to that class like defilement of Dark Sun. Instead they opted for using a system that is easily adaptable to how magic works in all other settings, and I can still limit it enough by keeping it to the blooded humans and creatures of elvish heritage. It works just fine in conjunction with the AD&D magic system. The loss of a True Mage or the brands of lesser magic are not that big of deal for me in the presentation of the setting.

A high level mage of any type is to be feared and respected.

Canon, by its very nature, cannot evolve without either everyone (including this site, in lieu of TSR) agreeing it so - otherwise, it is simply a large collection of house-rules, however brilliant or logical it may be.

It can and does evolve within a community with or without the prevalent power groups or majority opinion being the final say.

Once again I would use the fractured parts of the catholic church as an example. Now I might get excommunicated for the site, but the facts remain. As other posters have pointed out there is the planar connections, and if I limit my magic system to the two groups I mention above I can easily use the full plethora of magic schools without the needless limits they try to offer in the Book of Magecraft…even using the Birthright spell selection from the book to supplement other spells.

While I also believe in the interconnectedness of the various game settings, I also try to rationalise each setting's individual rules within the greater whole. BR's only transitive plane is the Shadow World, but that's hardly a problem.

Each to their own. I don’t find it useful to limit the connectivity, but your ability to rationalize it is all that matters if you want too see it that way.

Dark Sun is only connected through the difficult-to-access Grey.

The grey, could also be seen as a part of the greater shadow plane, but Dark Sun is also connected by a myriad of elemental planes that allow for connectivity that will work in the dynamic of planar travel. I also allow for the ether and astral…..although their gods are on Dark Sun in the form of the priest kings & the dragon (s). Ethereal travel is needed for access to any connections to elemental magic of the four basic types.

The new Faerûn's planar system doesn't match the Great Wheel, but does parallel it, so there are still distinct links. One does not need enormous amounts of additional data to synthesise them all together - it might help enormously, certainly, but you don't need it.

How doesn’t it match up??…..I think it does, but with different pantheon connections.

You are right about one thing….I don’t need vast amounts of additional data to seamlessly integrate the planar connectivity into the game.

This may be my last post, so I don't know if my other responses will make it in.

At least an MMORPG isn't able to cheat the rules. Put up defenses with information or simply don't respond.

[MatanThunder]

I was there, so respectfully I don’t think it was to be as restricted as The Book Of Magecraft seems to have been trying (unsuccessfully) to make it.

So was I and many others here. Looking at the posts from the "creators" it was also what they intended it to be. (thanks for the link AndrewTall). So "our" opinions on what they intended are in fact moot since they have made it pretty clear what they had wanted it to be.

What they wanted it to be hardly matters, when each DM is freely able to run any setting as they see fit within the game, as long as they use the basic setting materials related to geographical places in that world.

My Birthright setting has all the regions and players as anything you or the creators envisioned. The differences are that I can see advancement in the power level due to the very nature and strength of Realm Magic, and also, that I can see interconnectivity in the magic system that makes up the greater TSR setting games. I also can seamlessly infer that the Shadow World is in fact a part of the Shadow Plane by linking environmental factors that exist in both planar representations that are totally congruous with the issue. I have posted the material before.

No one as yet has in fact debunked the “seeming” issue that I have clearly linked to a page in the Manual of the Planes (by page #) and the similarities in the very nature of the planes descriptions in both books of the “Seeming” including the idea of using the Blood Spawn (which TSR acknowledges in the preface) could be used in other parts of the TSR release. It would be a great boon in the presenting of an adventure set in the shadow plane, and I will use the monster stats for the Seeming in Blood Spawn in order to enhance the Shadow Plane adventure.

The elves in most of the settings have the ability to use High Magic (in groups) so it is easy to see in this setting that the elves (and elvish) blood are tapped to be the magic using part of the Cerilia Setting. They would also be the group I would go to if trying to tap divine/world magics. Especially if a single creature was going to try to attempt to harness them.

As to the Shadowspawn and the Sie…..I could easily say that they were a type of Shade (See the monster) that is brought about by the melding (thinning of the barriers) with the Shadow World/Plane. It would certainly freak out the elves and halfings by seeing and evil counter self spawned from the thinning of the barrier with the Shadow Plane…er I mean Shadow World.

Except for nearly everything written in Bloodspawn on the subjects.

In that release (unofficial as it was never released, so we don’t know what the editors would have finalized in the product), there is a lot of monsterous information. I found it extremely useful, and as I mention above the seeming plays well with described affects of the Shadow Plane.

In that simply cryptic introduction (boxed on pg 5 when two world were one) that you seem to be relating to, I have mentioned before that I can see it as the Plane of Shadow splitting off from Cerilia. I works just fine in that context. If it was another setting in the world, then it would have locations uniquely its own posted in a supplement somewhere. They never did this. It can be the Shadow Plane, or a version of it that is unique due to its connection with Cerilia.

I note that the Shade is clearly mentioned there, which I related to earlier is part of the split off denizens that are part of the whole visual affect of the schism. Add that to the affects of the Seemings and you could very very easily come up with the visual presentation of what they present happened during the event at Deismaar.

Absolutely nothing in Blood Spawn screams out that I am wrong…in fact some of it can support my ideas….. In fact it is a monster compendium supplement….Creature of Light & Shadow, and not a definitive work on the planar connection between the Shadow Plane/World.

The schism they describe could easily be part of a break in the prime material plane of Cerila & the Shadow Plane…nothing in the release contradicts the material I have offered before about interpretation about the grandiose descriptors they use to find their Shadow Worlds creation.

The Shadow World/Cerillia split did not occur because of Deismaar (see also the interviews posted for the "creators" notes on the subject). The Sie split to the sellie faeries and elves before Deismaar. The events of Deismaar started the Shadow World's turn towards it's evil orientation. I won't bother to post again (since I have done it numerous times in the past) the relevant portions from bloodspawn since you seem to "dismiss" everything there as being "wrong" or not consistent with the known cosmology.

The split of a prime material world from the shadow plane everywhere could easily be described in this manner….as the shadow planes denizens interact with the prime material plane work into the overall presentation. I don’t dismiss it at all….I embrace it with an interpretation that allows for the recognition of the Plane of Shadow and Shadow World being one in the same. I can see it working just fine, with some nice little flavory nuggets of uniqueness for that part of the Shadow Plane.

The Sie were masters of all magic (both clerical and wizardly) - when they split (and there is a one-to-one correlation between seelie-faeries and elves) the seelie-faeries inherited the mastery of clerical magic while the elves got the mastery of wizardly magic. The faerie Queen is also the only one left who "knows" what happened - a pretty obvious statement that even the oldest elf is not one of the original ones.

I do have a question though. What deities did the Sie worship????

Also where did you dig them up, pg # and source please?

Which not only brings us back to a connection to shades, but also to the Seldarine and the split the Cerilian Elves have made with their racial deities.

The Sie don’t even warrant a full monster work up in Blood Spawn, and I want to see if they fit into the dynamics of the high powered magic that is part of what brought about the Shadow Plane/World phenomenon. It has been years since I read some of the material, and to be honest the background story is pretty dry reading.

Also, as I pointed out the Shadow World is much smaller than the Shadow Plane and is exactly parallel and equivalent to Cerilia. They were both parts of the same whole, unlike what the Shadow Plane is. The Shadow Plane is more like a mirror image, warped reflection than a part of the same whole (you know like the seelie faeries and elves are part of the same whole {i.e., Sie}).

To further mark that it is a separate plane I point out that on pg 9, “This region, presumably another dimension , we have since surmised…..” could this be a reference to the Shadow Plane/World. It was not noted as a dark paralell of the real Birthright.

I think you just made my point for me. If you note that the descriptor in the Atlas of Cerilia is this pg 9, “The landscape is eerily similar to Cerilia…(but not exact as you conjecture…and eerily …..like the shadow plane.).” It is a matter of interpretation at best. Also the border shadow plane for any prime material plane twists the plane it is near complete with its own plethora of possibly unique undead to mimic the lands of the living.

More to come..

[MatanThunder]

My post..

First I see it as a kit (a specialization kit). I would also say that it was less a class of magic change, and more a warping of magic that fit in with keeping the game less magic user driven, and alleviating problems with PC’s & NPC’s as powerful as regents. It is really unnecessary though.

It really didn’t offer very much in the way of unique playability or atmosphere…it simply limited the types of magic and who could use what they errantly wanted to interpret as some limitation on the magic system.

Since the used the same spells, schools, magic system, and really didn’t beef up the spell selection or come up with the Lesser Mage Class or the True Mage class; they certainly weakened any argument about this system having a great amount of difference in the magic systems that other TSR settings offered. As I mention above the Magician & Seer could easily be a specialization kit.

The whole Magician & Seer kit descriptions could easily be integrated into any game as a type of specialist “Kit”, specializing in their own brand of magic without lessening their reputations in magic by calling them lesser mages.

Hmmm let's see what did magicians get that is "different"?

Double specialization benefits.

A extra spell or two…another schools of improvement +1…..this is NOT class material like mages, clerics, thieves, fighters…it is “kit related”. Also no new experience tables (They are True Mages afterall), and no new. At best they are a sub class of mages/wizards.

Cantrip mastery

With all due respect…..

Wow the power of True Magic coursing though my veins…..oooooooooo….the bad ol’ True Mage is going to turn me to a pink mage and make me fart with his super cantrips…..give me a break. This is kit related bestowing cantrip mastery is hardly True Mage power.

Proficiency list included that on the Rogue's list

They do this for kits of all types. Classes can use proficiencies of other classes due to their skill set in relationship to the skill the proficiency bestows.

I allow for some kits to use other classes proficiencies all the time to reflect their skill set. Although I do make them set it up as a class….as kits are weak, and a class can offer more in the long run for playability/enjoyment of the gamer.

Wider selection of weapons

With all respect that should make them masters of magic…..or wait could they be a fighter/mage or thief/mage?? Also it has been long accepted that allowing clerics to use other weapons if their deity prefers that weapon type. They are still clerics though.

So pretty much more than other "kit" benefits, although still in general a "weak" class, IMO, but not a "kit".

Respectfully classes are driven by unique experience point tables, hit dice, and also a unique niche in the flow of the game….the limited scope of their powers make them as you say weak…..mages….they are limited even more than a generalist mage, gain what 2 or 4 spells and a bonus/penalty to saves vs those schools they specialize in. Not a class at all. And not written up like one either.

The idea of True Mages didn’t even have the contrivances of the Magician & Seer. They were simply blooded or elvish blood spell casters who could use the arbitrary distinction of true magic.

Where is there class distinctions that make it a true class different from mages?????

BoM - see Royal College of Sorcery for some benefits of those who studied there (pretty much equivalent to a "kit") (wizard and magician both are included)

A class is distinctive….with its own hit dice and class powers. This is a kit as I point out above. Using mage exp tables…..hit dice….spell starting limits….etc….

BoM contains several magician "kits" - which is necessary since that is a "new" class.

Simply because they kit out the magician they can easily make more kits of kits…it is a viscous cycle of subclassing.

The variations offer very little new and are all kits. Sub classes of mages, using mage exp.

BR Rulebook pg 14 lists authorized kits and several of them are wizardly oriented. Academician, Mystic, Patrician, Peasant Wizard, Witch, War Wizard.

And here you are reaching into other settings materials outside of Birthright, to draw upon your True Mages unique to Birthright. Hardly a unique class of powerful mages destined to rock the world and rule parts of it wielding Realm Spells.

My point remains: that first of all the settings created by TSR are interconnected in so so many ways..

Also that the True Mages are kits…not a class unto themselves. Their alteration of magic is arbitrary and not very well thought out or implemented. To get a true mage you have to kit it like other places in the TSR settings…The Wizard Handbook, etc……. And the kits you mention…do the preclude illusion or divination magic….or do you have to alter them to fit???

I want consistency in the magic systems of a large number of their campaigns.

Then it appears you really wish that all other settings were in fact "undiscovered" continents on Faerun. It has already been determined that magic works differently on Athas (Dark Sun) and that was acceptable, but it appears that in every other "setting" it would not be so.

My point is that the magic system can be interconnected & consistent in Birthright (and other settings), because they offered so little uniqueness to what is laughably called “True Magic”, while the Dark Sun setting set up an entire magic system that drained life force from the land & creatures to power spells.

Maybe some innovative thought on the issue of “True Magic” would have me without a foot to stand on, but they used a very good system that can seamlessly be integrated into the dynamics of Cerilia.

To one point I do agree though….I do in fact want them to flesh out the places that are just beyond the edge of the map. Giving us full world maps to fill in the blanks, or to use some supplements that offer something new and well thought out.

What they offered here is not so much an abomination, as it is a arbitrary & weakened version of magic that has no real reason to exist!!

Except of course in a world that was "designed" to have fewer true wizards and have true magic be of significant impact because of it.

True magic offered very little in uniqueness, and the number of mages in the setting is entirely a DM adjudicated issue.

I was even able to get some gamers to recognize that the numbers might be beefed up. Secret groups add to that, and it can be anything a DM wants it to be within the setting dynamics, as long as they have a capability to handle the affects of magic in their own game.

More to come still!??????

[MatanThunder]

Honestly. The illusion magic does a great deal with sound, and I have mentioned before shadow magic mimics real magic (even if they mention some type of limitations on it, which I couldn’t find readily at the time of posting….I did look though).

Illusions can have tactile sensations, phantasms have animating forces that simulate if not outright mimic life. A mage can impress his current psyche on an phantasm with the right spells though.

If you want to be a purist and ignore the entirety of illusion and diviner magic then that is you decision as a DM. I would of course argue that the Grand Coulee Dam might be needed to power some illusions though…..easilly!!!!!!!!!!!

My point - which you appear to have missed - is physics based. Sound, light, the sensation of touch, perception - all of these require little energy - that is RL physics energy i.e. joules. Lifting, creating mass, changing temperature, etc as evident in evocation, conjuration, transformation magic etc take orders of magnitude more energy. I know that some folk dislike the concept of mixing physics and magic, but to me it's natural - and I note that the energy needed to make even an illusion a hundred miles across pales in comparison to the energy needed to make a single kilogram of matter...

So you want to talk about physics, when I am talking about the magic system????? That is really incongruous??? The physics of magic illusion (light/force) is hardly the issue what I was trying to point out in the post that I was responding to….or the points that preceded it.

The point is and still remains that Illusion & Divination are not weaker than the other forms of magic, and they could easily be a mage to rival the other schools in their arbitrary analysis that some schools are part of the arbitrary kit of True Mage!!

The point that you appear to want to deflect by trying to draw light & physics into the points about magic? NO?

This is once again a matter of DM style. Some people have more information and understanding of issues in magic. In my own experience there is a counter spell for every spell or affect, and if you integrate it into the system, then you need to recognize your NPC’s have access to the counter measures.

I recognised all of that and stated as such. For the defender to have the spells you list as counters he needs to have the wizard. So you need to have both many mages and powerful 'fighting' magic in your game or few mages and little 'fighting' magic - the limitation on travel magics with the Shadow world was an attempt to reduce the wizard=gunship issue without stopping all fighting magic by reducing the ability of a mage to pop in, blast, and run before they run out of spells imo.

The creators never said they wanted to decrease mage power, just mage numbers. It isn’t a problem for those of us with an understanding of the full extent of the magic system.

Also you are failing to recognize that even in the Book of Magecraft they offer magic spell and item creation to add to the game. The world of Cerilia is capable of creating new magic items and spells that will offer up the blast and run scenario. It is the purist’s that want to limit the magic.

I also demonstrated fairly effectively that the attacking mage in question could be deposed of, with what 4 spells. You have to allow for imbedded magic, hung magic, and field magic in order for counter magic to work, but it is not a hard leap. I have 12 spells of official and unofficial natures that act as hanging or contingency based approaches to counter magic attacks. It works just fine. You just have to agree to grow your game to that level. Purists just don’t want to evolve to that point….each to their own.

You cannot have a coherent world with non-mages ruling realms if you have a few wizards with powerful fighting magic and no flight restrictions - the few wizards present inevitably wind up emperors - the other regents warnings from a court magician does a non mage regent little good if the regent can't then stop the mage slaughtering them, or massacring their people - I wasn't aware we disagreed on this point.

If you use court mages and counter magic this is not inevitable, and it will not happen if you can evolve as a DM to recognize that magic is not some type of boogey man for the Birthright setting. A non mage regent can survive easily,. (I and others have run it that way without the total breakdown or doomsday scenario you want to offer up), by using the tools the system offers as countermeasures to such an event..

It is not unique…it is just another setting even to its creator. Find the context

You drew this one out of a bigger post on something else entirely.

Here is the context you drew this statement from!

I did mention that this branch of early elves became haughty and spurned the Seladrine (spelling error possible). Other races like dwarves draw from a known racial deity aka Moradin in the setting....so I would as that they once again were inconsistent in the creation process. Some few elves will turn to the Cerilian pantheon or back to the old gods....not many but some..

As to the other races.

All realms have their unique human stories. It is hardly a unique idea….look at the forward in the Atlas of Cerilia…the German Merchants & Russians guys is hardly that unique of an idea either…in fact it could have been a mantra for TSR…..look at all the settings and look for the Egyptian nock off’s shall we….LOL

All settings are unique, some more so than others. If you want to remove the 'inconsistencies' between settings then you perforce remove the uniqueness. In which case don't bother with the setting at all and just play the generic game either in a world you make or in FR/Greyhawk.

Respctfully, you are incorrect at least for my DMing skills & style. I can keep the unique facets of the world of Faerun, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Krynn, Birthright, Spelljammer, …….ad nausium, unique in all matters.

Magic system consistency and planar connections simply seems to violate the purist viewpoint for you. I back your reasoning to see it that way, but will continue to put forth that it is an option, and can be a norm to keep the planar connectivity & magic systems connections the same, unless a creator offers a viable reason to change things……like Dark Suns Defilement magic.

The intent of the full post was to show……..

In this statement I was also involving the fact that the creators were relying on another racial deity to serve as the god of a race supplied by the TSR worlds settings. The elves of Cerilia being cut off from the Seldarine is definitely an issue with me, unless you can show a racial issue that offers a real reason for them to lose the connection. Unique flavor to prevent a race from being clerics is a mechanism to allow them to be damaged in killed easier….look no healers…..in the light that they are basically immortal. I can kills elves healers in the part or no. It is another useless arbitrary addition.

I also wanted to offer up how much unique thought was offered by the creators in the races of humans, by illuminating their original notes on the variations of man. German Merchants & Russian guys hardly leads to unique. If they offered up some real cultural differences later on I wouldn’t recognize the fact that they are Russian Guys and German Merchants now!! (aka…the Brecht & the Vos)

BR was designed, like other settings to be different to the existing standard, its uniqueness manifested in changed cultures, limited cultures for humans with depth, different monster types (vast legions were removed), enhanced political aspects to the game and substantial changes (for the time) to the magic setting - although many of the changes were taken up to a greater or lesser degree in later settings.

And none of that is changed in my setting just more magic in the setting than some. Also it is hardly unique to have German merchants & Russian guys as your starting points. It is what they did with them afterward that made them unique, but I can still clearly see them as the German & Russians they are.

There is no unique really in the game, and this is why. If you have to create a whole new society, you would have to list unique items like….dress, customs, life styles, tools, class structures, some of which is just dry reading that only a few find that interesting. It might be what you call flavor, but for me it is too much.

Relating to other societies and cultures we can draw from in the real world allows us to do away with all that needless errata. What they created is not so much unique as it is altered enough to offer a sense of uniqueness….which is all we can ask without having 3” thick releases such as the the Culture of the Rjurik or the Vos????

Sort of dry reading really!!

Also I hate to mention that the monsters they list in the back of the Blood Spawn are AD&D based. As to vast regions there are vast unexplored regions in world as well detailed (if weak in some areas) that need exploring….what is on the other side of Maztica (Aztec/Myan knockoff)???????

The political aspects never leave…as long as you can deal with the magic, it only heightens that part of the game.

[MatanThunder]

It copies many other systems in so many ways that it really lacks it’s own merits unless you as the DM see it that way and want to be a purist.

On the contrary, I see the merits of the setting clearly - however whereas you seem to see the village archmage syndrome of the Forgotten Realms as not merely an advantage to the game but an outright necessity whcih requires correction if absent; I see the syndrome as a severe even terminal drawback. Like all settings BR draws on a number of sources, like all settings whether the resulting blend is better or worse than the norm depends on the skill of the creators and the taste of the user. I think that the mix in BR is exceptional - which is why I have stayed with it for a decade since it ceased, if you don't like it, don't play it - FR and Greyhawk are already generic without the need for you to modify their 'errors'.

There is hardly a archmage in every village as you well know. As if most arch mages (other than Elminster or the 7 Sisters and a few others) give a Rats posterior about such norms….. They are in towers that float in the sky above them invisibly….they are in the crypts and dark places…they are behind their rivals with killing magic, but they don’t care about the peasants….at all……ever met a Red Wizard??

You seem to be objecting (and I can only read it from what the post is intending to relay, and I apologize if I am wrong), to power levels of magic again, which clearly falls into the DM’s hands. The scenario is the same but the power of magic is played up instead of played down.

But yes, to preserve the individual merits of the settings you do need to be a purist and retain the aspects which make it different...

What are your merits in the system………I think you are simply trying to limit the affects of magic on the setting…..the setting stays unique either way.

This means you want it different from the interconnected settings produced by TSR. More power to you and those like you. Your games and ideas are just as valid as mine in the bigger picture.

Indeed all games are valid (if enjoyed) and indeed I want BR to stay different - if I wanted to play one of the interconnected 'generic' settings you so clearly love I would do so; I don't so I play BR instead.

My points are just as valid as yours unless you are setting up the site to pander to only the low level and magic limiting gamer. We all have the right as DM’s to determine how the Birthright world plays out and the idea that you want to present only one side of the magic possibilities & planar connections fly in the face of Freedom of Speech. I am posting about Birthright as a gamer, with respect to my fellow gamers.

I should not be censored because I like the idea of magic being part of such a magically vibrant setting.

But as you are posting in a forum dedicated to the specialist BR setting;

Specialist what…….??????

I have only posted about the problems in Birthright as relating to the Magic System and how the planar connections can be made. With logical arguments and well thought out thread information that can show the connection by page numbers to these debate points.

I am posting respectfully and about Birthright…….The system and site can survive magic having just a little more power and the planes connecting in a manner not of your liking.

not one dedicated to the generic inter-connected settings why waste time trying to convince us to change the specialist setting to the generic one because you think that the setting will be better that way?

I’m posting to the Birthright setting and that is what the site requires…not that I post it as you want me to see it.

Go post on Gleemax about the stuck in the mud dinosaurs who like old settings and systems and don't see how 4e Ebbaron is going to be the best thing ever - far better than their antique crud?

I will post as I see fit within the guidelines offered. I am posting to the Birthright setting. You are setting up yourself to censor the material based on the edition and how you personally perceive the setting. I will continue to post until I run afoul of some rule violation that someone like you can use to get me banned, but I have already got those who read my posts here and elsewhere thinking on the issues of magic and planar connection in Birthright…..so you are losing already really.

No TSR lacked leadership. Which is why when Gary came back from Hollywood, he found that his ex and some backers had seized control and shut him out……..

One interpretation, imo the leadership was too inwardly focused, dominated by people without an understanding of the industry, pitiful at organising an efficient supply chain and risk averse to the point that TSR was almost inert. these failings had the predictable result that TSR suffered an abrupt and substantial loss of income when a minor company exploded across the US with a card-game that drew away a large number of TSR's core audience for a year or two crippling TSR's cashflow and profitability (anyone else remember Dragon stuck at the printers for want of payment?) this failure nearly killed the company - and the game.

More????

[irdeggman]

Will no one else on the site speak up for freedom of expression in this issue....or are you all mute conformists????

Do you mean like this one from an earlier post of mine?

This does not mean that discussions on how to do things in a different manner do not have a place (or meaning) - only that such discussions need to reflect that it is a change/deviation from "the setting" as designed and not what the setting "was meant to be" or "should be". That is where my ire gets raised. I have many of my own viewpoints on what I do when I run BR - but I do not "pretend" that they are in accordance with what the setting material says or what it was "designed" to be. I alwyas try to separate "my version" from "the official version" when making this comparisons.

I have pretty consistently expressed that opinion (as have others). It is the way you have consistently stated (or clearly implied) that your views are the "correct" ones (reference the many, many times you have stated that the original game designers were "wrong") and not merely stated that in your game this is how things are done. The way that you frequently (if not almost constantly) tell people who refer to canon rules "as you interpret it" instead of "I play things differently and in my game because. . . ."


The majority of people posting against you (and it is sad that it is becoming that instead of discussion on how things could be done differently in a different type of world/game) are responding to the tone of superiority being expressed.

kgauck did a pretty good job of expressing this earlier.