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  1. #21
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    kgauck schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
    > kgauck wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.
    >
    However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does
    not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler
    who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.

  2. #22
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.
    He's still a noble, he's just also a farmer. Noble is the word that describes the divine spark in the blood, its not about what you do, or how you dress, or where you seek your amusments.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    kgauck schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/sho...newpost&t=3984
    > kgauck wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    > There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    > Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.
    >
    However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does
    not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler
    who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.
    He's a bastard; and the PS of Ilien also has a commoner wizard's apprentice - the PS books would really have benefitted from better editorial oversight, as there's some of the fluff that doesn't really fit with the rules. Similarly, the PS of Talinie has at least one unblooded noble (as does the PS of Ilien), which isn't really explained satisfactorily (taking Deismaar as a starting point is rather problematic when it was 15 centuries ago; them being recently ennobled robe nobility might have made a better explanation, if weird for Lord Hestean). Not all nobility is court nobility; likely a majority of it will be manor-based (or, in the case of the Brecht, Khinasi, and most likely the Rjuven, also partly trade-based).
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 09-15-2007 at 03:00 PM.

  4. #24
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    Sorry for the length all....a lot to repsond to.

    Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...

    In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination (tho not many are aware of this), Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic...
    And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...

    It specifically mentions the spells of shadow walking and dimension door. If you want to extrapolate that it includes the other types of magic in the field (that aren’t short hop magic, or that specifically mentions a shadowy access) then you have the right as DM to rule it that way. Since it is NOT in the written rules though I would say that you are “Arbitrarily” expanding the magic that is limited for your personal DM style. I don’t think that teleport and gate access the shadow world in any way…..period.

    Furthermore gates are breaking through world/plane barriers. Teleport is translocational through the Ethereal (as I understand it), and the Gate spell is trans dimensional, by punching through the prime plane it is on and going elsewhere. All of your other examples are magics that allow localized dimensional affects that don’t leave the prime plane you are on.

    BTW…Translocational is not a magic that will simply move you through the shadow plane, it is magic that uses the ethereal plane…..site to site, with instantaneous interim travel.


    Actually, Matan, if you understand the theme behind teleportation, the Shadow World provides the extradimensional travel in Cerilia, just as the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow Planes do in regular D&D.
    Except that if you read my posts about the fact that the Shadow World and the Shadow Plane (singular) are in fact the same thing. The only differences are caused by some local anomalies related to its proximity to some unique features of Cerilia. Also I have all planes having access to the astral plane (as the gods would not be able to access Cerilia otherwise). And the ethereal is also in touch with Cerilia as elemental summoning magics function normally there. Not unique….just different.

    Also, you don't allow the DM to make rules changes without a rules addendum? How very grand of you. I suppose things that come up in play are forbidden by you from being amended by the DM as he sees fit to create a better adventure?
    Sort of insulting……has someone walked out on you??

    I only mention it to allow people see that the DM (and I am one too) doesn’t always have the final say. If any DM decides to willy nilly change fundamental parts of the game then the players deserve to know it. If they don’t like an individual DM’s style of play they should be able to avoid such problems by having a rules addendum to review……otherwise said DM deserves to have players getting up and walking out of their sessions.!!! Period!!

    "It isn't part of the intent of the source material." Again, very noble of you to stand guard at the intent of the rules, but unless it's very clearly stated, it is impossible to discern such intent accurately. Everyone can state their opinions, but only Rich Baker et al can possibly know the full intent.
    Except that each of use determines intent. Why does it bother you so that others interpret the rules differently??? It is up to each DM to see what a rule says. If you don’t like it…..well see my comments above on DM issues & addendums!!

    Except for the "old forests" there is an "unwritten" agreement between the Ahuireans at least to no longer destroy the "old forests". (pg 12 of Ruins of Empire) "No army has ever marched through the Erbannien, and none from Anuire ever will. Any ruler who despoil the shady trails of the forest would see his allies raving for his blood. An unspoken truce among the Anuireans ensures the protection of the Erbannien from war."
    Unwritten fairly screams to me that the DM is making a judgment call here.

    Also you assume (errantly) that I am talking of harvesting “old growth” which clearly wasn’t my intent, as I mentioned a mage purchasing previously clear cut areas and using those areas for perpetual reforestation and harvesting projects.

    If one is simply marching through an area, one isn’t necessarily despoiling them. Now the elves and the sentience of the wood might not like it and try to prevent it in all manners of nasty tricksy ways, but there is nothing to say that war breaks out every time one regent passes through the lands. The Ebanniens might fight for every inch, but the world of Cerilia isn’t just Anuire and the core provinces in the southwest. Even though that is where the Iron Throne is.

    You seem to want to focus on those areas, but it was hardly my point about the harvesting of natural resources in the game. It isn’t about that old growth forest in the south of Resone & Aerenwe. It is about all the other areas too.

    I have to split this reply

  5. #25
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    I'm baaaaacccckkkkkk!!


    The point I was making was in the sheer numbers of wizards on Cerillia. There are many fewer than in the Realms (or other settings, again except for Dark Sun). That is a flat out fact and cannot be simply dismissed. In order to cast true magic you must be a scion (of which there are relatively few) or of elven blood. Also even among the elves there are few true mages. Book of Magecraft pg 5 "Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a "calling" to become wizards. Still fewer posses the bloodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace."
    If you find that you wish to downplay magic wielding amongst the elves with that Pg 5 reference then that is up to you. There are many things TSR just got plain wrong, and as with my statements earlier about elvish druids this is another one.

    Elves are inherently a magical race. And simply by the writers of the Book of Magecraft saying that few find it a calling, I would say they are wrong. This is why!!

    The elves of Cerilia are under huge pressures by humanity and humanoids. They are willing to do anything to protect their lands. (i.e. Rhoube). They would NOT ever simply put aside their magical heritage simply because they don’t feel a “Calling…..LOL” to do so. They would use every tool at their disposal to prevent those cockroach humans and humanoids from over-running their forests….and that mean magic. Also being such a long lived race, the older and elf is, the more likely that they have found reason to study & find new and unique magics, and since Cerilian elves are basically immortal they have much more time to come to the conclusion that magic is useful for the protection and health of the community.

    I.E……the creators of the Book of Magecraft are wrong. They were trying to downplay the possibility of having large numbers of elves in the game wielding magic. If that fits into your belief systems as DM then I applaud your decision. For me the above comes into play.


    The same type of individual DM decisions come into play when it comes to true magic. The rules say that true magic is rare, but the definition of rare is up to each DM to determine. When comparing Faerun vs Cerilia I find that although I would say rare is about 20-30% of Faerunean levels, what I have found is that many DM’s of this setting want to fairly remove magic from the game, except as a subservient role to their fighter regents.

    Personally, I will always see that there are enough wielders of true magic, to keep magic as a viable and valuable part of the setting. Not just in the service of some lord of the lands either.

    {Personally I find this a bit out of whack, but it is in the 2nd ed material and is very plain in how it is written.}
    Oooooooo…. A 2nd ed dig…..TOO PLAIN……LOL..plain hardly

    Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.

    I have used 2nd ed material exclusively in my references because I know that your plane of reference. I could see a Realm Spell researched that could do it, even though there isn't one in the books that I could find - but anything that is not on par with an Alchemy Realm spell is "cheating" the system since it will effectively be giving the benefit of an Alchemy spell without the same "cost".

    Sources do replenish themselves naturally, albeit slowly.

    Book of Magecraft pg 22

    "When a province's level increases, the development causes the land's maximum source level to drop immediately. When a province's level decreases, however nature takes longer to heal itself and replenish the lost mebhaighl."
    The cheating is again in the eyes & hands of individual DM’s. Some people fudge their dice rolls willy nilly. That is cheating.

    When any player or DM makes a decision using the rules in an interpretation that is viable than it is hardly cheating, and when you say cheating a system, then you are trying to make the final call on system issues, but you are clearly making a DM related decision.

    Also there are magic items that augment sources. There would certainly be items and spells that would accelerate the process for a Cerilia that was a little more magic rich than you campaign may be. I think that the game system can survive such additions to the setting without it being broken. It would/could also serve as the focus for many epic adventures.

    Imagine the Anuireans finding an artifact (the Branch of Source Rejuvenation) that provides repair of sources in an industrialized/civilized region. It would be war with any group currently possessing it.

    Interesting since the exact text says "such as" and that is not an all inclusive list so the DM would not be applying this on a whim. He should explain how "transportation spells" function, but it is fairly easy to see a similarity (unless one wishes to ignore it) between the dimensional magics and any sort of gate used for transportation.
    I mention the difference in the translocation/dimensional/breaching magic in a paragraph above……not all access nearby dimensions. It is my interpretation, and is not far from the norm in many groups that I have played in.

    In the back of both the Book of Magecraft (pg 83) and Book of Priestcraft (pg 125) it specifically states that "Not all spells and magical items created for AD&D game settings are appropriate for use in a Birthright campaign. DMs and players need to take care that spells and items borrowed or adapted from other products are compatable with the rules and flavor of the Birthright world: spells with effects tht contradict, impair, or are otherwise incongruous with life in Cerilia should be excluded from the campaign.

    &

    Players may use any spell from the PHB in a Birthright campaign. . . .This section lists the spells and magical items from the tome of Magic that are suitable for use in Cerilia. Any spells or items excluded from this list are not recommended for the Birthright setting; al always, however, players and DMs may agree to allow (or disallow) a spell or item to suit their campaign."
    Once again that is a DM addressed issue. If you want your Cerilia to be limited in scope that way, more power to you. To think that we all agree that we should limit things in magic to a certain realm, which is a game mechanic issue, is best resolved by individual DM’s.

    I believe that because all prime material planes, inner, and outer planes have some connection with o one another that the magic of spells and items can easily be transplanted. It isn’t for everyone. Even the Dark Sun setting that is supposedly cut off from the other worlds in so many ways, has elemental planar connections that could allow for transport of items, ideas, and spells from prime material plane to prime material plane.

    It can spice up a game setting that is otherwise predictable. As long as a DM and his/her players are aware of each others wishes in the area it is all good. Play it as you see it.

    Incongruous has nothing to do with it….it is DM decided.

    It appears your favor deciding NO!


    A little more splitting sorry....

  6. #26
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    Well the logic of excluding elves from being druids in Birthright comes from the fact that all druids are priests of Erik (Birthright campaign Setting Rule Book pg 12.) And since the elves are immortal and have no gods it was only logical in that paradigm to exclude them from being druids. It was all part of making the setting of Birthright "unique" and have its own "feel".

    In 2nd ed core material druids (and rangers) could get their power/abilities from either a god of nature or from the nature itself. The default was for druids and rangers to get their power from nature itself. In putting together the Birthright setting the developers decided to give the setting a specific "feel" and in so doing make druids get their power from the god of nature and rangers to get theirs from nature itself.
    As to the Erik only Druid deity, I can only nod. I do allow elves to be Druids of Erik…am I wrong...so be it?? As to issues like the Elves of Cerila having NO gods because of being immortal, then I would have to agree to disagree. I would say that some battles between elvish deities and Cerilian deities prevents some connections.

    As I have mentioned before though, there is a connection with the Astral so elves can access other deities if they have the will to do so. Not all of us think that the Shadow World is as unique a place as some seem to. It is part of the Shadow Plane for me.

    Also there are rules for dealing with deities out of contact with their god for periods of time, so there is the potential of having Druid deities of other patheons making appearances in the game.

    One other small point for the elvish druid nature, even if prevented (by Erik) from being truly Druid in the campaign, they still have the potential to be very druid-like in their spell casting as a magic user. They can access plants sentience with spells of communication, magically direct the growth of plants for the community, and use animation magics to manipulate them in times of need. They can even magically enhance their growth if the need arises. They would only do some of this with great need and motivation, but it can be done.

    What you're suggesting is about the same as suggesting that a young catholic priest who doesn't find the patience to wait for a bishop to die would start peddling miracles and relics without church supervision. Or not expecting a wall (and a war) after nailing a bunch of reformist theses on the door of a temple.
    Not miracles & relics….but dogma and rhetoric. They would be the Luther’s and other reformists, seeking change in an otherwise useless hierarchy. When the youth are stymied by the entrenched then they will evolve in ways that break/circumvent the powers that be.

    How much experience do you have with any century before, say, the 18th (and even, the late 18th)? I'd recommend the Dialogue of the Two Sages for a starting point on late classical druids; but quite simply the world, except in situations of great turmoil (see the Sengoku Jidai period) most of the world wasn't much of a meritocracy. If the young upstart isn't willing to wait for his turn (or, in the case of a more mobile hierarchy, unable to make his turn), the he's an upstart who would mostly be considered to deserve to stay back. Quite simply, there is nothing as good as the title - nobles and clerics alike would hoard titles and delegate the jobs for sheer questions of prestige.

    As with all of us only what I have read. With 2 years of college and books in Greek and Roman history that interested me, I can recognize that this limits my experiences somewhat.

    But then again I prefer lower level campaigns (and never used the old school hierarchies at all, which weren't meant to be used for Birthright anyway, and the fighter's cohort in 2ed Birthright seemed rather tacked on as a result) - It's very rare for my players to have a character over 10th level who is not nearing or past their 40s.
    Acknowledged and respected. For myself, being 48 puts me in the 40ish range. I also was blessed in my early years with the time to be a prolific gamer. I have some PC’s that defile (yes defile) the norm. I used to game bi-weekly (or more) for over 8 hour stints….go to school…..go to work……chase a girl…..then game…….repeat and rinse.

    With the additional weight of power carried by scions, it is fairly logical to assume that most if not all of them are nobles (even if I put them a whole magnitude above the PS of Muden stats, which feel rather low - aristocratic density could vary widely depending on conditions, and was usually higher, not lower, than what is suggested there); the migrations were already 5 centuries old, so the likeliness that it was some kind of total battle is, IMHO, low - even lower when you consider the area covered and the impossibility of feeding that many people over such a small areas (yes, even with clerics, but I consider more than 1% spellcasting clerics to be a very much overestimating the numbers).
    With all respect and recognition to your historical references, (and I do recognize the work in it), I have to say that there are far more rogue personalities in the world than those who follow a normal pattern. These individuals often use power for their own personal whims, and even though many on the fields that day were of some quality, I would say that some of them would be far from the pillars of society that you want the scions to represent.

    As to the numbers….each to their own. I would say 1% is less than accurate, but that is just me. I think the idea of clerics/clergy in the game can support larger numbers even though vast numbers of them would be low level friars.

    Also the greater number of clergy could help in the issues of feeding vast numbers of people in a small area.. They could stockpile the food before the battle.

    IIRC, Teleport is on the banned spells list (if not officially, I've always seen it on the banned spells list of every PBEM I've checked). The others, well, as mentioned, the books of *craft and the book on the shadow world have some indications.
    And that I must say is why I don’t play there. Banning of patently useful magic on a whim is not only wrong, but it sends me right to Playing an MMORPG where at least the rules don’t change when someone doesn’t like what this or that spell does to their game. It was a core spell and will always remain so with me.

    As for commonality of spellcasters, the RoE Atlas gives us the Chamberlain's estimate at about 200 "true mages"; even assuming they're all archmage level (one PBEM makes this a necessity for realm spells, IIRC - Book of Spellcraft establishes Archmage level in Birthright at somewhere between level 7 and 10), I doubt we'd see more than 2.000 to maybe 4.000 of them, excluding the elves.
    This is a DM choice though. If a DM wants to keep their Cerilia setting low level then so be it. For me I stress a more magic prolific game in any case. To set a number is pretty far fetched in any case. It may not even be the numbers, but the amount of exposure such individuals display. The impact of 2000 or 4000 thieves in a setting would be significant, but you make them mages and now you can change the world.

    Thats it for now.

    Later


  7. #27
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    How you play in your game is of course fine M-T, but one of the consequences of the standard setting removing the etheral and astral planes is that magic using those realms then had to work via the shadow plane - including teleport. If you re-instate the astral and etheral planes then fine, say that teleport - and all the other transportation spells go back to using the etheral, but in a standard game all players should understand that any magic that works by folding time and/or space or uses a 'connecting plane' etc is going to tap into the Shadow Realm.


    There are a number of ways that BR restricts the casual use of magic - mainly imho to allow other classes to rule realms and the like without being crushed by the next roaming wizard - if using standard DnD rules in BR a high level wizard could fly about invisibly assassinating rulers left and right to gain a huge bloodline with relative ease. Limiting transportation magic means that at the least the other regents can try and block the mage's approach - or pursue after the mage has shot their spells to exact vengeance; while a teleporting mage will sooner or later attract the attention of some deeply unpleasant Shadow World monster.


    If you remove the limits on the spells without increasing the number of mages beyond 1-3 per realm the game is radically changed power wise and wizards would swiftly form the bulk of all regents. You clearly change both limits - many mages to minimise the impact of one rogue killer (my court mage uses spell X to detect/block the teleportation) and also recognise the impact of relatively common magic throughout society (a recognition which is lamentably uncommon) and that's fine of course - whatever your group prefers - but it makes a very different world to the ruleset as written and so is clearly going to grate on purists if presented as standard for BR.


    I do support the use of written house rules and understand where you are coming from with your comments; but I also support the right of a DM to say 'this is the setting, I'm leaving the house rules unwritten to keep it simple, I'll rule ad hoc as fairly as I can in the spirit of the setting, if you feel hard done by let me know after the game and we'll come up with something'. A DM has a tough job to do, frequently gets much of their enjoyment from designing the world of the game and frankly magic et al work as they damn well please. Unless a restriction serious under-powers a PC compared to other PC's - as opposed to evening down a superman - then the player has no right to complain, they accepted the DM's authority when they joined the game - and I say that a someone with an ingrained bad habit of being a rules lawyer who has memorised most of 1e, 2e, 3e and a vast number of house rules (all of which of course now form a jumbled mess in my head...)

  8. #28
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post

    Oooooooo…. A 2nd ed dig…..TOO PLAIN……LOL..plain hardly

    Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.

    It appears that you have a history of posts on these boards that resort to saying that I (and others) are taking digs at 2nd ed. And using that as the basis to dismiss arguements being presented.

    I never, ever in this thread made a dig at 2nd ed.

    I stated that I was was using 2nd ed rules and text as the sole basis for any of my points. This was being done since the OP (you) have repeatedly said that was the plane of reference you were using so I made the assumption that it was the basis for any rule-type arguements being made.

    The text I quoted (and note that you have provided none) is very specific in what it says.

    I never said anything about 3rd ed and yet you seem to imply I have and by making that assumption you are dismissing any arguement I am making.
    Duane Eggert

  9. #29
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post


    It specifically mentions the spells of shadow walking and dimension door. If you want to extrapolate that it includes the other types of magic in the field (that aren’t short hop magic, or that specifically mentions a shadowy access) then you have the right as DM to rule it that way. Since it is NOT in the written rules though I would say that you are “Arbitrarily” expanding the magic that is limited for your personal DM style. I don’t think that teleport and gate access the shadow world in any way…..period.

    Furthermore gates are breaking through world/plane barriers. Teleport is translocational through the Ethereal (as I understand it), and the Gate spell is trans dimensional, by punching through the prime plane it is on and going elsewhere. All of your other examples are magics that allow localized dimensional affects that don’t leave the prime plane you are on.

    BTW…Translocational is not a magic that will simply move you through the shadow plane, it is magic that uses the ethereal plane…..site to site, with instantaneous interim travel.
    Well I specifically mentioned that I consider those schools as Shadow Magic in MY Campaign...
    Anyway, In Birthright You cannot access Ethereal Plane without Crossing the Evanessence, so we are back at the Birthright official mechanics that all dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World. PERIOD...

    You may run Your campaign as You wish, it may well be FR with blood abilities and realm magic, You may say Sidhe have their pantheon, or whatever, but it is up to You, and Your gaming crew, but the truth is that Birthright concept is lost in those conversions...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  10. #30
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    irdeggman schrieb:
    > This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
    > You can view the entire thread at:
    > http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
    > irdeggman wrote:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    >
    > Oooooooo�. A 2nd ed dig�..TOO PLAIN��LOL..plain hardly
    >
    > Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.
    >
    > -----------------------------
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > It appears that you have a histroy of posts on these boards that resort to saying that I (and others) are taking digs at 2nd ed. And using that as the basis to dismiss arguements being presented.
    >
    > I never, ever in this thread made a dig at 2nd ed.
    >
    > I stated that I was was using 2nd ed rules and text as the sole basis for any of my points. This was being done since the OP (you) have repeatedly said that was the plane of reference you were using so I made the assumption that it was the basis for any rule-type arguements being made.
    >
    > The text I quoted (and note that you have provided none) is very specific in what it says.
    >
    > I never said anything about 3rd ed and yet you seem to imply I have and by making that assumption you are dismissing any arguement I am making.
    >
    I assum MT simply misunderstood you. You said the matter is very plain =
    very clear written. And he understood that 2E is too plain = too simple
    for you. At least that is the way I read his answer being a non-native
    englishspeaker myself.

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    By Bloodaxe in forum The Royal Library
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