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  1. #11
    Site Moderator AndrewTall's Avatar
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    <snip to split threads>

    MT: On the magic band-aid point I designed a realm spell that effectively could be used to restore a realm to health as you suggest - primarily as a McGuffin for a campaign vaguely planned at one point, its cost needs tweaking - it is still too low I think, but if you are interested: http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/ind...pe_Realm#Notes
    Last edited by AndrewTall; 09-18-2007 at 08:27 PM.

  2. #12
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    MT: On the magic band-aid point I designed a realm spell that effectively could be used to restore a realm to health as you suggest - primarily as a McGuffin for a campaign vaguely planned at one point, its cost needs tweaking - it is still too low I think, but if you are interested
    Pretty Nice.......I like it. I will copy it off later for addition to my endless notebooks of spells. 18 Tomes 3" thick each and growing.

    As I tried to indicate before, as a rule Druids and Mages don't mix in Cerilia. The Rjurik don't think much of mages and that is where most of druids are. Therefore it can be taken that is is very uncommon for any large scale interaction between a mage and a druid. Once perhaps in one province, but if you want to do it more than once or over a larger area, I would suggest that the druid is seriously going to push for lots of official recognition of his/her church and will want a couple of temple holdings. I know my druid would.
    Once again I have to mention it is a matter of interpretation. Styles and level of play. There are always rogues in a field of endeavor. Even Weenies of the C*** recognize that there is a counter druid society that will use nature magic, in a more negative light.

    Barring personal interpretations of the Rjurik (and I would say the Vos & the Elves are in the mix too) Druidic lore. I would say that for price (and once again I mention Sacred Grove Facilities), that a Druid could be enticed to aid in a business proposition, especially if it involves healing of the land. In addition to a bastion for Druidic nature.

    Your younger people/druids would jump at the idea. If you use the old school version of the Druid Heirarchy, then you recognize that some younger druids of great skill, will be held back by their inability to simply defeat a druid in the named aristocracy. These titles are also most likely tied to provences (in Rjurik in this case). These provences wouldn't be easy to hold once you got them either.

    Now that young druid might not be able to gain the position even though he/she has the potential to advance, but he/she could easilly find "NEW" digs as good as the title until they can contend for the title.


    It has everything to do with the setting. Anything more powerful than a magician has to either be blooded or an elf, unless it's part of the clergy. Hence, any useful wizard in Anuire will be noble, and old nobility at that. And they're just as free willed as the rest of the nobility, it's just that they're most likely to carry with them a lot of the same prejudices.

    Sorontar: And it would be a right way to play a druid.
    As you interpret the information, which you are entitled to. For me I think that you are stuck on the idea that only the nobles were at the final battle and gained the "blooded" nature. But many lesser creatures would also have inherited the power. What happened to all them. Especially lesser blooded elves.

    They do exist and they are as common as you wish them to be in your & I in wish them to be in my campaigns in the past

    Your points are all related to your interpretation of the setting. Druids are of the same diverse stock as other creatures. In my campaigns I have always allowed elves to be Druids. It is one of the major beefs I had with TSR. It was a lame idea to exclude them from the class then and still is.

    The difference is that of "scale" more than anything else.

    Those in Cerillia capable of manipulating true magic (or "the weave" for those who really insist on making similarities between the Realms and Birthright {there are a few others out there}) are few and far between when compared to the number in other settings (except for perhaps Dark Sun, but that is more along the lines of "surviving being hunted down" instead of being capable.)
    It isn't so much a difference in scale, as a choice of how to interpret the campaign setting. If some gamers want to keep is a closed society with no possible connection to other settings or magic connections then so be it.

    I on the other hand see it as viable and eminently defendable postion that the "True" magic of the setting can easilly be connected to Faerunean "Weave". The High Magic of the Elves of that setting also has a great resonance with "True" magic, even though you have to have groups of elvish mages to enact elvish high magic.

    It is all a matter of choice.

    Quite true except for the fact that a wizard and druid would be relying on the fact that there are fewer people in the area. Wizards capable of repairing the land via magic as you propose should only be able to do so with realm magic - anything else would make it far to readilay accessable. The spells that affect provinces in that way are Realm Spells in the second ed material. So if "mining" or "foresting" then the sources are being reduced which reduces the effectiveness of the magic needed to repair them in the first place - thus results a death spiral of sorts.

    Also if the population increases then the potential source levels are reduced which also gets you into that spiral, since the reason for getting out resources is because of the fact that there are more people there to use them.
    I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

    It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

    Personal choice of course makes the final decision.



    And using magic for means of transportation also has great risks in Birthright - spells like "gate" will lead to the Shadow World and that causes all kinds of risks when attempting to use it as a more "mundane" manner of moving things rather than a "spectacular" one. Birthright Campaign Setting Rulebook (2nd ed) pg 88) "Many dimensional magics such as dimension door and shadow walk use this property to create short-lived passages through the Shadow World. Wizards must be extremely careful of using these spells; more than one mage has vanished while using such a spell and never returned from the Shadow World." It is fairly easy to equate spells such as "gate" as falling into this grouping as well as it fits more into the truely "specatacular" effect of true magic in the setting.
    And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

    If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

    I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.

    It depends on the definition of "nobility" being used. If that is used instead of being a scion then it is absolutely in accordance with what makes up the setting. Only scions of those of elven blood can cast true magic - period. Magician level magic should not be allowed to perform the type of "miracles" being mentioned here. In 2nd ed magicians were limited to 2nd level spells, except for divination and illusion - no spell that does a permanent restoration of the land should fall into those categories.
    And once again I hate to mention that it is a personal interpretation of the rules that sets up the nature of "Nobility" in the game. All sorts of creatures were on the field that day, and each has an equal chance of first escaping, and then of passing on the line to their offspring.

    There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.

    Any human or elf in the game can have the "blooded" ability in the 2nd ed. For me that extended to all races that were on the field that day. They could all have been exposed to the potential.

    No offense intended. You can see it your way, but you will never get me to agree with the notion that only (A DM's) interpretation of NOBILITY can have the Blooded powers. It isn't part of the intent of the source material.

    Later

    Last edited by MatanThunder; 09-15-2007 at 01:13 AM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member ShadowMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post



    And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

    If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.
    Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...

    In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination (tho not many are aware of this), Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic...
    And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...
    "If the wizards and students who lived here centuries ago had practiced control - in their spellcasting and in their dealings with the politics of the empire - you would be studying in a tall tower made by the best dwarf stone masons, not in an old military barracks."
    Applied Thaumaturgy Lector of the Royal College of Sorcery to new generation of students.

  4. #14
    Ehrshegh of Spelling Thelandrin's Avatar
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    Actually, Matan, if you understand the theme behind teleportation, the Shadow World provides the extradimensional travel in Cerilia, just as the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow Planes do in regular D&D.

    Also, you don't allow the DM to make rules changes without a rules addendum? How very grand of you. I suppose things that come up in play are forbidden by you from being amended by the DM as he sees fit to create a better adventure?

    "It isn't part of the intent of the source material." Again, very noble of you to stand guard at the intent of the rules, but unless it's very clearly stated, it is impossible to discern such intent accurately. Everyone can state their opinions, but only Rich Baker et al can possibly know the full intent.

    Finally, what are "Weenies of the C***"? If it cannot be written without censoring it (i.e. it's unprintable), please make sure it isn't written or printed to begin with.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 09-15-2007 at 01:25 AM.

  5. #15
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post


    Barring personal interpretations of the Rjurik (and I would say the Vos & the Elves are in the mix too) Druidic lore. I would say that for price (and once again I mention Sacred Grove Facilities), that a Druid could be enticed to aid in a business proposition, especially if it involves healing of the land. In addition to a bastion for Druidic nature.
    Except for the "old forests" there is an "unwritten" agreement between the Ahuireans at least to no longer destroy the "old forests". (pg 12 of Ruins of Empire) "No army has ever marched through the Erbannien, and none from Anuire ever will. Any ruler who despoil the shady trails of the forest would see his allies raving for his blood. An unspoken truce among the Anuireans ensures the protection of the Erbannien from war."



    It isn't so much a difference in scale, as a choice of how to interpret the campaign setting. If some gamers want to keep is a closed society with no possible connection to other settings or magic connections then so be it.

    I on the other hand see it as viable and eminently defendable postion that the "True" magic of the setting can easilly be connected to Faerunean "Weave". The High Magic of the Elves of that setting also has a great resonance with "True" magic, even though you have to have groups of elvish mages to enact elvish high magic.

    It is all a matter of choice.
    Either you have misinterpreted what I said or have a free flowing gate from the Realms that allows "wizards" to come to Cerillia en-mass. The point I was making was in the sheer numbers of wizards on Cerillia. There are many fewer than in the Realms (or other settings, again except for Dark Sun). That is a flat out fact and cannot be simply dismissed. In order to cast true magic you must be a scion (of which there are relatively few) or of elven blood. Also even among the elves there are few true mages. Book of Magecraft pg 5 "Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a "calling" to become wizards. Still fewer posses the bloodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace." {Personally I find this a bit out of whack, but it is in the 2nd ed material and is very plain in how it is written.}


    I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

    It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

    Personal choice of course makes the final decision.
    I have use 2nd ed material exclusively in my references because I know that your plane of reference. I could see a Realm Spell researched that could do it, even though there isn't one in the books that I could find - but anything that is not on par with an Alchemy Realm spell is "cheating" the system since it will effectively be giving the benefit of an Alchemy spell without the same "cost".

    Sources do replenish themselves naturally, albeit slowly.

    Book of Magecraft pg 22

    "When a province's level increases, the development causes the land's maximum source level to drop immediately. When a province's level decreases, however nature takes longer to heal itself and replenish the lost mebhaighl."



    And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

    If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

    I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.
    Interesting since the exact text says "such as" and that is not an all inclusive list so the DM would not be applying this on a whim. He should explain how "transportation spells" function, but it is fairly easy to see a similarity (unless one wishes to ignore it) between the dimensional magics and any sort of gate used for transportation.

    In the back of both the Book of Magecraft (pg 83) and Book of Priestcraft (pg 125) it specifically states that "Not all spells and magical items created for AD&D game settings are appropriate for use in a Birthright campaign. DMs and players need to take care that spells and items borrowed or adapted from other products are compatable with the rules and flavor of the Birthright world: spells with effects tht contradict, impair, or are otherwise incongruous with life in Cerilia should be excluded from the campaign.

    Players may use any spell from the PHB in a Birthright campaign. . . .This section lists the spells and magical items from the tome of Magic that are suitable for use in Cerilia. Any spells or items excluded from this list are not recommended for the Birthright setting; al always, however, players and DMs may agree to allow (or disallow) a spell or item to suit their campaign."
    Duane Eggert

  6. #16
    Birthright Developer irdeggman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post


    Your points are all related to your interpretation of the setting. Druids are of the same diverse stock as other creatures. In my campaigns I have always allowed elves to be Druids. It is one of the major beefs I had with TSR. It was a lame idea to exclude them from the class then and still is.

    Well the logic of excluding elves from being druids in Birthright comes from the fact that all druids are priests of Erik (Birthright campaign Setting Rule Book pg 12.) And since the elves are immortal and have no gods it was only logical in that paradigm to exclude them from being druids. It was all part of making the setting of Birthright "unique" and have its own "feel".

    In 2nd ed core material druids (and rangers) could get their power/abilities from either a god of nature or from the nature itself. The default was for druids and rangers to get their power from nature itself. In putting together the Birthright setting the developers decided to give the setting a specific "feel" and in so doing make druids get their power from the god of nature and rangers to get theirs from nature itself.
    Duane Eggert

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post


    Once again I have to mention it is a matter of interpretation. Styles and level of play. There are always rogues in a field of endeavor. Even Weenies of the C*** recognize that there is a counter druid society that will use nature magic, in a more negative light.
    And people who want actual druids (i.e. neither of these cliches and what they come with), who only care about nature inasmuch as it fits as part of their religious and social views, might have had groves in the past (after all, we have some traces to suggest that the romans and the etruscans did, so once urbanisation would have stabilised, there's little to tell us that the british and gauls would have set their temples mostly in groves even in the cities), etc, but are primarily tied to a particular group of peoples' public faith. But that's mostly me here, I think.

    What you're suggesting is about the same as suggesting that a young catholic priest who doesn't find the patience to wait for a bishop to die would start peddling miracles and relics without church supervision. Or not expecting a wall (and a war) after nailing a bunch of reformist theses on the door of a temple


    Your younger people/druids would jump at the idea. If you use the old school version of the Druid Heirarchy, then you recognize that some younger druids of great skill, will be held back by their inability to simply defeat a druid in the named aristocracy. These titles are also most likely tied to provences (in Rjurik in this case). These provences wouldn't be easy to hold once you got them either.

    Now that young druid might not be able to gain the position even though he/she has the potential to advance, but he/she could easilly find "NEW" digs as good as the title until they can contend for the title.
    How much experience do you have with any century before, say, the 18th (and even, the late 18th)? I'd recommend the Dialogue of the Two Sages for a starting point on late classical druids; but quite simply the world, except in situations of great turmoil (see the Sengoku Jidai period) most of the world wasn't much of a meritocracy. If the young upstart isn't willing to wait for his turn (or, in the case of a more mobile hierarchy, unable to make his turn), the he's an upstart who would mostly be considered to deserve to stay back. Quite simply, there is nothing as good as the title - nobles and clerics alike would hoard titles and delegate the jobs for sheer questions of prestige.

    But then again I prefer lower level campaigns (and never used the old school hierarchies at all, which weren't meant to be used for Birthright anyway, and the fighter's cohort in 2ed Birthright seemed rather tacked on as a result) - It's very rare for my players to have a character over 10th level who is not nearing or past their 40s.

    As you interpret the information, which you are entitled to. For me I think that you are stuck on the idea that only the nobles were at the final battle and gained the "blooded" nature. But many lesser creatures would also have inherited the power. What happened to all them. Especially lesser blooded elves.
    All were or likely became nobles (note that this includes the squires and knights; frankly, England (and Britain as a whole because of it) is about the only place in Europe to make a distinction between the two, to have exclusive primogeniture, etc. It was still very much a part of the aristocracy; when I say commoner, Churchill would be out of the category), at least among the humans. You may find me annoying with my historical stuff, but when we talk about humans, I like some grounding point. Classical armies generally fall in one of two forms: a citizen army (often, but not always, these states would practice slavery on a large scale and could thus afford it; the citizens might have class distinctions between them, e.g. Rome, or not - rare, I'm actually unsure if it actually existed; the germanic tribes were also a good example) or a professional aristocratic army (as we find among the celtic tribes, the japanese, the aryan tribes, etc.). By the end of the classical period, the transition from milites to nobiles was already getting underway in western Europe. From the little data we have, however, the Anuirean administration was likely closer to Persia (and emperor who acts more as king of kings with a variety of satraps and vassal kings), and probably didn't entirely make the distinction in the first place (on this point, you can feel free to disagree). In such a military system, the idea of commoners in the ranks (and I really mean in the ranks) is generally a great rarity - for an idea, bringing in commoners (besides mercenaries, which form an exception to everything I say) in the rank and file of the french army was considered troublesome to the nobility down to the end of the XVIth century.

    With the additional weight of power carried by scions, it is fairly logical to assume that most if not all of them are nobles (even if I put them a whole magnitude above the PS of Muden stats, which feel rather low - aristocratic density could vary widely depending on conditions, and was usually higher, not lower, than what is suggested there); the migrations were already 5 centuries old, so the likeliness that it was some kind of total battle is, IMHO, low - even lower when you consider the area covered and the impossibility of feeding that many people over such a small areas (yes, even with clerics, but I consider more than 1% spellcasting clerics to be a very much overestimating the numbers).

    Again historical comparison - Charlemagne has millions of descendants today, only, the count of Paris is a couple tens of thousands of them (other european dynasts are in a similar situation regarding CM) - here we have even more incentive to keep the blood pure (even if they didn't know exactly the nature and power of the bloodlines, marrying between scions would likely be a priority of marital politics among the nobility). Quite frankly, if nearly every scion of Anduiras within Avanil, if not the whole of Anuire and then some, wasn't at some point related to the Avans, I wouldn't be in the least surprised.

    I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

    It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

    Personal choice of course makes the final decision.
    The only officially published method involved genocide.


    And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

    If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

    I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.
    IIRC, Teleport is on the banned spells list (if not officially, I've always seen it on the banned spells list of every PBEM I've checked). The others, well, as mentioned, the books of *craft and the book on the shadow world have some indications.

    As for commonality of spellcasters, the RoE Atlas gives us the Chamberlain's estimate at about 200 "true mages"; even assuming they're all archmage level (one PBEM makes this a necessity for realm spells, IIRC - Book of Spellcraft establishes Archmage level in Birthright at somewhere between level 7 and 10), I doubt we'd see more than 2.000 to maybe 4.000 of them, excluding the elves.
    Last edited by Gwrthefyr; 09-15-2007 at 05:30 AM.

  8. #18
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    ShadowMoon schrieb:
    > ------------ QUOTE ----------
    >
    >
    > And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.
    >
    > If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.
    >
    > -----------------------------
    >
    > Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...
    >
    > In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination, Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic... >And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...


    And the novels mention that risk too in "Iron Throne" where the courtmage of Boeruine transports Michaels sister to the Archduke for
    some sinister plans.
    Last edited by Thelandrin; 09-15-2007 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity.

  9. #19
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post
    There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.
    Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.

  10. #20
    Site Moderator kgauck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MatanThunder View Post
    It is all a matter of choice. [...]

    Personal choice of course makes the final decision. [...]

    I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.
    Obviously its not the DM's choice how they run a campaign, its yours. This is a real argument for keeping rules away from players, and maybe even not letting players know what game system you are using.

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