two minor errors in BRCS

[irdeggman]

I always wonder, why their pictographic system was not classified as writing? At least, by outside sages. Another puzzle - how Vos peasants discern between skilled bard/magician and low-level priest?

Well Vos do not like bards (consider them weak) and hate wizardly magic (so magicians are pretty much likewise hated). The only real presence as far as priesthood goes is Kreisha and Belnick. They are pretty hard to miss as being priests.

Vos, in general do not have "peasants" in the sense that Anuireans do - every one in Vos "society" is supposed to be a warrior of some kind - all other professions are considered "lesser" and "inferior". Bards are "tolerated" to an extent for their "amusement" purposes - but are still considered way down on the food chain. And they had best not use "magic" if they know what is good for them.

[kgauck]

In don't really think the Vos have pure bards, in the single class sense of 2E (unless you're playing 2E). Because in 3E, its just to easy to dip into a few level of fighter and give off the appearance of being a fighter who knows the song of Ivan Stephanovich, or the tale of Petyor and the Wolf, or the lore of the ancient sword of Basil Zariyatam.

If you assume, as I do, that the average Vos tribesman is a 3rd level warrior, and you are a fighter 2/ bard 1, you're still tougher (or as tough) as the everage tribesman. And every level of bard after that makes you tougher than the average tribesman still. Of course you are not so tough as the pure fighter (N)PC of the same level, so you need to be deferential to them, but from the point of view of a tribal leader, you can defeat the average tribesman, and steel his warriors fears in the face of a dire foe. Taking those levels of bard will take you out of contention for tribal leadership, because you aren't as tough as the toughest guy in the tribe. And you aren't as good a bard as some Brecht troubadour who worships Laerme. But I don't think either average vos warriors or tribal leaders would regard a fighter 4/ bard 4 as anything other than a good advisor and compaion for the chief.

[Gheal]

And my point was - how vos warriors know the difference between clerical and magical spells or skillful oratory and bardic casting? Without spellcraft, I mean.

[Retillin]

Cultures who embrace the rage often regard it as an inner power being summoned, a secret path to power. That fits Vorynn. If instead we think in terms of classic D&D classes, then spellcasting = wizard and rage = barbarian, and then rage for Vorynn makes no sense. The rage might also be a commune with spirits of a feral nature, which also fits.

For the Rjurik, raging is a doom, not a secret inner power. Its more of a dark fate. Berserker’s Blood, therefore seems more appropriate for Vorynn than it is for Reynir.

You are right, I had forgoten the doom aspect of the Rjuriks. However, I still can not see the blood of Vorynn granting a bonus to strenght and con.

Seeing as how Vorynn was very much an observer as apposed to a god of action, I dont see him granting powers. He did not act/care was Azeri was up to untill the Vos were seduced from him.

So I will be removing the Berserker’s Blood from Reynir, but I just can not wrap the my mind around allowing Vorynn to grant it. (bloodwise)

[Whammydill]

In don't really think the Vos have pure bards, in the single class sense of 2E (unless you're playing 2E). Because in 3E, its just to easy to dip into a few level of fighter and give off the appearance of being a fighter who knows the song of Ivan Stephanovich, or the tale of Petyor and the Wolf, or the lore of the ancient sword of Basil Zariyatam.

If you assume, as I do, that the average Vos tribesman is a 3rd level warrior, and you are a fighter 2/ bard 1, you're still tougher (or as tough) as the everage tribesman. And every level of bard after that makes you tougher than the average tribesman still. Of course you are not so tough as the pure fighter (N)PC of the same level, so you need to be deferential to them, but from the point of view of a tribal leader, you can defeat the average tribesman, and steel his warriors fears in the face of a dire foe. Taking those levels of bard will take you out of contention for tribal leadership, because you aren't as tough as the toughest guy in the tribe. And you aren't as good a bard as some Brecht troubadour who worships Laerme. But I don't think either average vos warriors or tribal leaders would regard a fighter 4/ bard 4 as anything other than a good advisor and compaion for the chief.

Yeah I always imagined them to be Skalds, a warrior-poet/orator type.

[AndrewTall]

I used to wonder what attracted the Vos to Vorynn / vice versa. Physically they are a very rugged folk and that didn't seem to fit with the scholar-god. I then wondered about having Vorynn not so much simply distracted as focused - intensely aware of the shiftings in the Spirit Realm and expecting his independent people to beable to handle themselves for a few decades while he hunted down the truth.

That let me see him more as a hunter than scholar - intensely patient and focused, but also very in tune with the physical side of things. I back tracked Vos rage to then give him a very slow burning but intense temper - the rage would only be unleashed when needed but would be fueled and harnessed until that date. With these aspects shared by the Vos Azrai was then simply unleashing their rage and amplifying their physical side rather than creating these aspects in a introverted otherwordly people.

Partly that view was also driven by a desire to 'barbarise' all the pre-Deismaar gods to reflect a less advanced time. It did however neatly allow for vorynn's rage ability.

In the same vein I let Reynir have berserk (I see him as the hunter of the wilds with Erik exemplifying one aspect of his hunter/guide portfolio) while having it considered to have blinded him to the insidious nature of Azrai's evil until to late thus leading to the downfall. (Reynir was basically stomping goblins when he should have been looking for the undermining of his people).

[irdeggman]

And my point was - how vos warriors know the difference between clerical and magical spells or skillful oratory and bardic casting? Without spellcraft, I mean.

It is not the spell, but the person casting it that they can tell the difference.

As I said the Vos priests are pretty "obvious" in their appearance and behavior.

Anyone not of the priesthood who is "casting" spells would be looked on as using "bad magic".

And I think skalds work much better with the Rjurik than the Vos (in fact that is what they are referred to in the Rjurik Highlands). I just don't see bards in Vos culture as anything but the fool at the tavern. Singing is pretty much a waste of time and entertainment (other than maybe dog fighting to use a recent example) would likewise be perceived as someone who is not pulling their weight.

[AndrewTall]

Singing is pretty much a waste of time and entertainment (other than maybe dog fighting to use a recent example) would likewise be perceived as someone who is not pulling their weight.

I'm not so sure, how else to the tales of a warriors glory spread? What point battle unless glory is won and all others stand in awe at tales of your might? Talk of love and honour may be fools tales sung only by weak southerners; but a battle poet whose songs lead the warriors into battle and sends word of their greatness to Belinik in the afterlife is a man prized! When the raiders pass who sings the songs for the dead that Belinik know they were slain in fair combat - lest the dead seek malice against their slayer and spread tales of cowardly murder to the lord of war? Whose songs keep memory of blood feud alive that the children may know the crimes that must be avenged?

A skald must of course yield to a warrior - but they will gain some respect for without them a warrior dies without note and no glory is won beyond that bragged in a tavern. (And lets face it, what school bully went around without a sidekick to cheer him on and be bragged to?)

On the flipside it is also said that Laerme has a grip on some Vos, warriors form only a (sizable) minority of the folk - someone must herd, plow, fish and gather and women will not all follow Kreisha - and are likely scorned as warriors in a culture respecting brute strength above all else. Some Vos yearn, knowingly or not for a less brutal life - particularly those deemed weak by their fellows and so welcome songs of hope.

[geeman]

At 10:04 AM 9/21/2007, Gheal wrote:

>And my point was - how vos warriors know the difference between
>clerical and magical spells or skillful oratory and bardic casting?
>Without spellcraft, I mean.

I don`t think they do, in particular. The Vos don`t really
differentiate between the types of magic per se. Rather, they reject
bards not because of the nature of their magic but as a generalized
rejection of the profession. It`s a cultural bias against the role
of bards in society. Vos like their gods and, therefore, the priests
of their gods and the magic that is derived from that
occupation. But the generally reject other gods (at least that`s the
stereotype--there are really a lot of temple holdings in Vosgaard
that are dedicated to neither B nor K.) Their dislike of magicians,
wizards and bards is akin to their dislike of the clerics of other
gods and things like thieves, weakness, mercy, armor without spikes,
pretty flowers, etc. In BR bards are akin to the elves, have a
definite role as entertainers and quasi-rogues in most Cerilian
cultures, and happily perform that most repugnant of
professions--diplomats--in Rjurik lands. Bards speak pretty words,
prance about, expect to be treated without violence, etc. They`re repugnant.

Even a Vos character with levels as a bard, which is something I
think perfectly plausible, would not refer to himself as a bard. Oh,
his abilities would be portrayed by taking levels in the bard
character class, and he`d have the stats, but he`d call himself a
warrior first. The closest he might get to a bardic sort of title
would be something like "Warsinger" or some other thing that might
sound like a prestige class title. He`d call his abilities things
that the Vos would find laudable--or not admit to them at all--and
fight anyone who dared to compare him a "bard."

Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

As already mentioned, the Vos (with elements from Slavic and Russian cultures heavily drawn in mostly, with very few elements from Scandinavian cultures) tend to find that there are earthly powers that can be conjured from within one's body, a sort of latent power of magical properties; people confuse divination and magic with bookish people who would never fall in a rage, but this shows they lack an appreciation for the magical traditions of millenia of various cultures, including African animism and Slavic belief in daemons of the land and so on... In fact, I believe that any disciple of the ways of Vorynn, back when there were no blood powers and no human could employ true arcane magic - since none of them had a bloodline and the only mages they had were bards and magicians, would probably not consider it an error or a foul idea, becoming a barbarian (in the sense of taking levels in that class), opening up this path of his soul.

Bards would generally not be taken very well from Vos in modern times; they are simply tolerated, and probably ridiculed, but that's that. Woe befall the fool of a bard who weaves an enchantment to enthrall his audience!

As for the Rjurik, I really would never see them as accepting raging as an honourable thing; true, some of them may be doing it, but I suspect they are thought of as dangerous madmen if not even cast out from their tribes at least.

Spellcraft is not meant to make the difference between arcane and divine magic; it's a practice, a skill of how talented you are at using the finer aspects of magic, such as preparing a ritual or a binding circle of power, and how capable you are at taking notice of these aspects in the magic around you. Anyone can make an educated guess about the kind of magic employed by a person: priests generally do not shun armour, on the contrary they seem to wear it a lot more than other spellcasters (a categorization that seems artificial to the people of Birthright: to the bulk of the population of Cerilia, it fits the bill only when it comes to arcane magic), and they tend to wield lethal weapons, heavily emphasizing on some aspects (according to their patron/matron deity), wear holy symbols and, most of the time, some indication of their station in the priesthood; on the other hand, bards tend to wear light armour, wield swords, and prefer avoiding combat at all if possible, also being noted for vast knowledge over almost any topic regarding times past and important people and places, finally characteristic about their slightly roguish ways and their tendency to have a musical instrument at hand or sing (note, for example, that enchantments are woven by spellsongs); finally, magicians tend to be sprightly types carrying a lot of peculiar stuff and wielding a wide range of simple weapons, but generally shunning armour, also characteristic of their long absence every morning and tendency to use a peculiar, rolling language when casting a spell; wizards and sorcerers are vastly more obvious. Of course, this has a bit of a hyperbole, but that's not the truth about magic: that's just how people believe magic is about these people (and it generally is worse in their eyes).