The Baron of Diemed

[kgauck]

I don't really see why Tael isn't a duke when Raenech is.

Titles are not just about your claims, they are about the recognition of your peers. Other dukes have been willing to recognize Jaison as a duke but unwilling to recognize Gavin as a duke. Anyone can claim to be the Emperor, but until you are recognized as such, adopting the style is a bit rediculous.

My question is why would we refer to people by their last names as if they were common tradesmen?

[Gwrthefyr]

Titles are not just about your claims, they are about the recognition of your peers. Other dukes have been willing to recognize Jaison as a duke but unwilling to recognize Gavin as a duke. Anyone can claim to be the Emperor, but until you are recognized as such, adopting the style is a bit rediculous.

My question is why would we refer to people by their last names as if they were common tradesmen?

My bad, let me correct

"I don't really see why Ghoere isn't a duke when Osoerde is."




*or Tael, on the off-chance he actually is only Baron Tael in a republic of Ghoere setup, which I might find interesting enough to ponder about.

I didn't say elevation, but inflation - how elevated was, say, the first king of Wuerttemberg when his foreign policy remained just as dependent on another sovereign as when he was a duke. Like how every petty lord and their grandmother in renaissance Italy seems to have begun using the title of prince to establish independence towards the primary Italian states.

I always assumed Taeghas to be the original duchy and Brosengae to be the upstart - they have some Medici-ish feel which makes them suspect as ancient nobility.

[kgauck]

Like how every petty lord and their grandmother in renaissance Italy seems to have begun using the title of prince to establish independence towards the primary Italian states.

There are two unrelated uses of the title "Prince". One is as the offspring of a titled ruler. The other, and the case in question, is for a soverign or semi-soveriegn who rules a small territory. It generally ranks right above a count depending on the history of the title. To claim to be a prince in the Holy Roman Empire is to claim to be independent without claiming to be a duke. Dukes were semi-soveriegn rulers of large territories, princes were semi-soveriegn rulers of small places, as small as Lichtenstein or Monacco. (The precedence of these two particular places grew during the 19th century, both were more like counts in the middle ages). So prince is the natural and normal title for someone who rules a small territory without an overlord.

Its also worth noting that the independence being established during the renaissance was from the Emperor, not any presumed Italian states, because there were none in the Empire. Italy was dominated by a system of communes, a form of city structure. The rise of territorial seigneurialism in Italy happens near the end of the Rennaisance as the Emperor is no longer able to guarantee the independence of the local towns and the rising cities establish territories. The Emperor was the protector of the status quo against the new seigneurial upstarts who would sieze power and start wars within Imperial territory.

In Anuire, Ilien and Endier would not be counties, because that implies an overlord, but would be principalities.

[Gman]

Its fun to put players in difficulty with titles..

I.e. the player is the diplomatic envoy to one of the courts - their lord does not recognise the Lord of the courtr as deserving the title which they claim. Do they offend their own lord and recognise the title the lord they are visiting demands or offend the lord they are visiting - or find some way around the problem.

[kgauck]

That problem should not be left to the PC's unless the host ruler choses their visit as the time to announce his claim (which would be very odd). Normally these kinds of things are part of the instructions given to envoys. Its a normal part of diplomatic procedure to manage unpleasant disagreements like this with polite acknowledgements of your own throne's position.

So in short, this issue should not offend, and its really only the PC's call to make if they are a regent in their own right.

The easiest way to give offence in diplomacy is to keep someone waiting.

[crazydragon]

Would a ruler as part of some political ploy to gain favour and acceptance or soe sort of concession voluntarily take on a lesser title. The idea is to make Diemed appear to be the victim rather than the agressor.

EG The Duchy of Diemed has in recent history (last couple centuries) lost Roesone, Endier and Ilien and still have the Spider's armies ready to cause mass destruction and mayhem on their doorstep. Upon the ascension to rulership of one heir, he sends a diplomatic envoy to say the Duke of Boeruine from the "Baron" of Diemed asking for monetary and military aid against several threats.

Over time, the title of "Baron" becomes associated with the ruler even though his ancestors all claimed the title of Duke.

Alternatively, you could have some horrid prophecy associated with the next Duke of Diemed. The rulers in efforts to stave of disaster accept the lesser title.

EG the Grand High Worshipfulness of the Orthodox Imperial Temple prophecises that the Duke of Diemed will suffer bloodtheft at the hands of the Spider whilst his armies sack the capital. If the Duke believed the prophecy is legitimate, he might pass along his bloodline to his heir, and let his heir become the new "Baron" of Diemed forbidding any future scion of house Diem from taking the title of Duke.